Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins

SMART Recovery Explained - 12-Step Alternative or Supplement

• Brett Lovins • Season 4 • Episode 1

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If you’ve ever wondered whether recovery can feel more practical, more flexible, and more grounded in science, this conversation opens that door. We sit down with SMART Recovery’s executive director, Pete Rubiness, to explore a peer-led model that pairs individual agency with supportive community - without sponsors, required labels, or prescribed beliefs.

Pete Rubinas shares his path from participant to facilitator to director, then takes us inside a typical SMART meeting: clear guidelines, honest check-ins, crosstalk that invites dialogue, and tool-driven conversations rooted in CBT and motivational interviewing. We dig into the Four-Point Program and the Family & Friends handbook, why writing things down reduces self-deception, and how participants use practical worksheets to make real changes between meetings. If you’re earlier in the stages of change, you’ll hear how SMART welcomes varied goals—abstinence, moderation, or harm reduction - and respects your right to change your mind as you learn.

We also widen the lens beyond alcohol and drugs. Because SMART is behavioral, the same tools apply to challenges like overeating, pornography, or workaholism. That mix helps people see shared patterns and feel less alone, supported by self-compassion and mindfulness instead of shame. Pete explains SMART’s rapid growth, the rise of online and affinity meetings (including daily options for veterans and first responders), and partnerships with treatment programs and peer recovery specialists who champion multiple pathways. Throughout, we return to a simple idea: people do better when you offer real choices, clear tools, and a community where change feels possible.

Ready to explore another pathway or add something new? Listen now, then try an online meeting, grab the handbook, and tell us what resonates. If this conversation helped, subscribe, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

Other useful links from Brett:

SPEAKER_01:

Hello there, welcome to Recovery Conversations. My name is Brett Levins. I get asked a lot about alternatives to AA, alternatives to NA, basically alternatives to 12-step, because 12-step has sort of been the default most known about option for people who are struggling with addiction. And the one that is usually top of the list is one called Smart Recovery. So I've mentioned it, I've listed it, I've linked to it, and I know almost nothing about it. So today's podcast andor YouTube video, depending on what you're looking at, uh I'll have Pete Rubinus. I think I'm saying your name right, Pete, and I'll know it here in just a second when we meet. Uh but yeah, he's the top person at Smart Recovery. So I'm kind of equipped with my ignorance. So because I don't know a lot, and I emailed with him about that, I didn't do a lot of research in advance on purpose. Because if I don't know as somebody who's as interested in this stuff as I am, then likely there's a lot of people that are that will tune into this that don't know either about smart recovery. So I'm gonna give him the opportunity to tell us more about it, and I'm glad you're here to check it out. Uh I'll be rolling the tape here in just a few minutes when we start our conversation. Thanks. All right, here we are, Pete. Nice to uh meet you formally or informally or whatever we're doing here. Thanks for joining. I'm gonna uh just give you the opportunity to kick this off by introducing yourself however that however you want to do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Thanks. Uh glad to be here with you, Brett. Uh, my name is Pete Rubiness. I'm the executive director of uh Smart Recovery USA, um, the United States affiliate of uh the nonprofit organization Smart Recovery. I've held that position for two and a half years, but I've been around Smart since January of 2017, first as a participant, then as a facilitator, and then as a national volunteer before becoming uh the organization's executive director. Uh, this is my third career. I spent uh 10 years working in the business world at Pricewaterhouse Cooper's. Uh, I spent 10 years running a Montessori school, um, and now I'm doing this. So kind of reinvented myself uh a few times. Um in addition to having my own uh journey to uh end my relationship with alcohol uh back in 2017, um, I uh also grew up in a home affected by um alcohol use. Um and so I'm I'm also uh interested in the the family and friends side of uh the the recovery movement as well, um, and and ensuring that we have empowering pathways available both for those who are seeking recovery for themselves, but also empowering support for uh for family members and friends of those who are are struggling with an addiction. So um very glad to be here with you today and and look forward to uh uh you know sharing a bit about smart, I hope.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love it. Well, and and I I we emailed back and forth a little bit, and I'm somebody who is deeply interested in in recovery, right? And I'm in recovery as well. And I was uh there's a little pre-roll I just put together where you know I had to tell on myself. I've put the link to smart recovery into many things over the years, and I've verbalized it. And like I said during the email, in some ways my ignorance is gonna I think it's gonna be good for this call. Like I I don't know nothing, but I know uh very little. And so um, so this opportunity to to explore this with you is I think it's gonna be really, really cool for a lot of people. Um I'd love to open it with uh you know sort of a you know 12-step and AA has been sort of the default uh most no most well-known game in town. So I want to start by just saying, okay, if somebody was interested in in learning more about smart recovery, I think probably it's safe to say they it picture it something like AA, right? They're they're figuring it something like that. So I'd love for you to explore with me the most the the biggest misconception about uh smart as as as as compared to AA or not. Just what what what are people what what can help people understand about smart that's that's unique or or that they come in with the wrong understanding of it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, sure. Um and you know it we are like uh the 12-step uh fellowships uh in some ways, uh in that we are a mutual support group program where people come together in free meetings and support one another in making progress uh to uh overcome an addictive behavior. Uh there are some key differences. Um the first is that we are a secular program. Um so uh whereas you often encounter uh religious language uh in 12-step fellowship meetings, um, you you generally don't in smart meetings. Uh that's not to say that we don't acknowledge that spirituality is often a part of someone's recovery journey. Um, and in fact, many people talk about it being a part of their work on R.4, which is living a balanced life. Um, and and you're free to talk about your own experiences with spirituality as a part of you know your own sharing in the meeting. Um, but there's no kind of prescribed way of speaking about it and no suggestion that it's something that you uh have to do as part of uh engaging in a recovery journey. Um another big difference is that we don't have sponsors. Um we uh certainly encourage folks to build a network of support from within uh their meetings. Um we we just pull up shy of suggesting that like a one-on-one relationship is important. Um I think in part that's because of the self-management nature of our program. Uh the phrase that I like to use is that SMART is where individual autonomy meets supportive community. Um and so we're encouraged to like look around the room and think about who it is that we are uh resonating with, who is it that we're looking up to, uh, exchange numbers and emails with that person and you know, and set of people really uh and you know, build that network of support from within your meeting uh and and beyond your meeting, right? Um but but there isn't that kind of like one-on-one guide um through the the program, if you will. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh well you're leading me into the next question. So if you so uh so so doing my little bit of research and my little bit of knowledge on this, you sort of iterated it. My understanding is it's a science-based, uh, evidence-based program, and you're alluding to some of the differences. So I'm a person who's you know having my own concerns with myself, or and you mentioned family, but we'll set that aside for right now. But just for myself, I'm walking into my first SMART recovery meeting. What what what what should I anticipate?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, so yes, I uh another big uh you know point about SMART is that it is grounded in cognitive behavioral and motivational enhancement science. So we know that those approaches work for folks who are um working to make changes in their lives uh when encountered in a therapeutic setting, and we believe that it's helpful to use similar tools and language in a group setting of peers. Um every meeting is led by a trained facilitator. Um, and so those facilitators have gone through either a self-paced online training course uh that SMART offers or a live uh Zoom training or in-person training with SMART trained um folks. Um in those trainings we are learning uh motivational interviewing skills as well as basics about uh the SMART recovery uh tools and approach. Um and so that first of all helps to ensure that you're going to get a relatively consistent experience in any SMART meeting that you walk into. Uh that said, there is still quite a bit that is up to the personality and and uh you know kind of flavor that a given facilitator brings to a meeting. A typical meeting typic uh often includes a uh a check-in and uh well, meeting guidelines and kind of a little introduction first, then a check-in. Um and during the check-in, uh one thing that that's noticeable pretty early for those folks who've engaged with both 12 steps and smart is that many folks don't choose to use uh a label to describe um their addictive behavior. Um say something along the lines of, uh, my name is Pete and I struggle uh with alcohol, or um, I'm examining a problematic relationship with uh opiates, or you know, whatever, however they choose to describe it. Um but often you don't hear terms like addict alcoholic in our meetings. Uh sometimes you do, um and that's fine. Like people are free to self-identify in whatever way is most helpful for them. Um after we go through the check-in, um uh there's then uh one of two paths that a meeting typically follows. One is more open-ended and the other is more structured. I tend to lead a more structured meeting myself where we're prepared to present a tool from the handbook uh and then have the group talk about how they've used that tool as a part of their recovery journey. Um other facilitators choose to take a more open-ended approach where, depending on what was brought up during check-in, um, you may follow that thread and kind of just uh see where the conversation takes you. Uh either way, in smart meetings, we engage in crosstalk. Um and so when one person shares, um, if I was to share something about my uh experience this week, um, you would have an opportunity to respond to that and to share something that worked for you when you were facing a similar situation or something that didn't work for you. But you know, to there it's more uh conversational um in nature than uh some 12-step fellowship meetings. Um so um, and then uh after uh you know kind of that that discussion, there might be some time for a little bit more open discussion, and then we typically do a checkout as well so that everybody gets a chance to hear everybody's first name one more time, uh, as well as you know, folks tend to mention something that they're grateful for from the meeting or maybe a commitment they want to make to themselves as they leave the meeting that week before we come back together again the following week. So that's a pretty typical experience in a smart meeting that helped.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so I'm gonna drill into a couple things. You mentioned a workbook. Yep. So uh so again, I if I if if this is new to somebody, what is a workbook? Yep. How do I get one? What can I anticipate when I crack it open?

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. So we have uh two uh main handbooks for our public meetings. Uh the first is the four-point program handbook, which is the handbook that's used in the meetings that are for those who are struggling with an addiction themselves. Um and uh we just published the fourth edition of that handbook um uh in April of this year. Um and uh we evolve as science evolves, right? So um there have been quite a few uh advances in understanding what types of uh skills support effective behavior change since the publication of the third edition. So we incorporated those things into uh this newest edition. Um and uh the other handbook is our family and friends handbook, so uh a kind of corresponding book for the family members and friends of those who are uh on on our side of uh the program. Um those handbooks are available from the Smart Recovery website, they're also um available on Amazon. Uh and uh you know, usually if you're attending in-person meetings out in the community, there's an inventory of those books available from the local facilitators uh as well. Um you don't have to have a handbook to participate in the meetings. Um and uh all of the key tools from the handbook are available to download for free from the website. So uh the handbook's not something that's meant to be a barrier. It is written in a very accessible way so that folks can uh kind of work through things on their own uh time in between meetings and then come back to meetings and talk about, you know, okay, I I put pen to paper this week, uh, I worked on this tool, uh you know, had this aha moment or have this question about what I, you know, uh was was thinking while I did that. Um, you know, and they've got a group of supportive people they can talk to about um that experience then.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, this is great. Uh let's just keep going if you're if you're up for it. This is great. Uh all right. So I think I've got my stats right. You might know I'm cold. And I and I know these stats are are are kind of tricky depending on where you look, but I think the last time I saw um, and just to continue forward with this con uh contrast between 12 step just for a minute more. Um I think AA is roughly 2.2 million members, something along those lines. And I think it's been consistent for a long time. And I think that in the US, uh, I think we're around, I want to say 30 million people that are in recovery. Okay. Um that's quite a delta. Um so so I I say that because I I believe in hope as being an important part of this. And I also am not a believer that there's a right way to do it. So that I'm just showing my cards on that, and that's that's why I'm I'm open about offering different ways of people to look at this have you on this call. So I say all that in preference to another kind of question, and maybe there's no right answer to this, but people that are seeking help usually they're in usually they're in a tricky spot, right? Um usually it's confusing, it certainly was for me, very frustrating, very confusing. And I'm just curious, the qu this question I've written down here is uh if you can answer this, what kind of person ends up finding their way into smart? Uh are they let me just leave it there. What what do you have?

SPEAKER_00:

Um unfortunately, um, because our movement is still so much smaller, um, I I think a lot of that depends on on where uh we've had the the maybe luxury of of having meetings started in the past, right? Um and so if you look demographically historically, uh we tended to skew um whiter, more highly educated, um uh you know, higher socioeconomic status. Um however, um we've seen plenty of success uh with meetings that happen in communities that are comprised uh of different demographics. And I think in particular over the last five years, um we've seen a real shift as we've made a more intentional effort to uh to bring SMART to communities in a more partnering way. Um, in other words, you know, the only path to getting new SMART meetings started in a community is no longer for an individual kind of lone ranger person out in the community to get trained by themselves and start a meeting and have like the weight of that on their shoulder. So we do a lot more uh reaching out to organizations that have uh existing relationships with people in communities and uh you know know those people well, know those communities well and can um bring SMART to them in a way that is uh appropriate for that community, right? Um that said, I would say um there are uh some things that um you know so some reasons that I hear for folks um ending up in a SMART meeting. Uh, you know, one of them is that that secular versus uh religion thing. Uh the other is um is that the 12-step philosophy didn't work, and so they googled for them, right? And so they they Googled 12-step alternatives, and you know, smart recovery tends to be the biggest of the options that are presented to them when they do that, right? Um and then uh, you know, I I definitely think there's uh quite a few people that the science part of it is appealing, um, you know, that they they read about how it is based in uh you know social science uh evidence, and you know, that that um uh you know is something that's important to them. Um and then I would say uh you know, increasingly um uh younger generations are being exposed to uh mental wellness concepts, uh cognitive behavioral theories, uh mindfulness, self-compassion, they're being exposed to these ideas a lot earlier than you and I uh may have been, right? Um and so uh when they find a program that reflects those things that they already, you know, kind of know about, have maybe spent some time exploring uh in other ways, uh it feels really consistent. I know that was a big part of it for me. Like I really appreciated that the things I was talking about with my fellow uh group members in smart recovery groups, I was using the same language that I was using when I was talking to my therapist or when I was going to my DBT group, right? Like that there wasn't any code switching that had to be done between my mutual support group setting and uh the other supports that I had as I tried to work to balance out my life. Um so uh it's kind of a long answer to a relatively simple question. But it's it we are as diverse as as uh uh any other community. Um I definitely think there are certain people that feel uh a pull towards us, um, and hopefully I captured a little bit of that there.

SPEAKER_01:

I think you did, yeah. Um, you know, I'm somebody who likes to look for patterns. I'm sort of a uh you know, I'm I'm I'm just wired to be kind of scientific. And uh to me when I got when I got sober, um which is what I needed to do, and I'm just saying that out loud for anybody listening, it doesn't mean that's what you need to do. Um that could be where you end up, but um but that that's a nuance that I think is important to sick to say here because a lot of people when faced with a door that is you know binary in terms of it's gonna be this way or this way, that can be daunting, even if and that was that was me, man.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, uh well, and that's that's one thing, Brett, that I that I didn't mention, uh, you know, that I think is is also important is that I do think that maybe sometimes smart feels more comfortable for people that are earlier in the stages of change, um, because we don't um require uh abstinence um you know to participate in our meetings. We don't um we don't exclude people from the conversation uh if they have a goal other than abstinence. Um and so potentially we're able to be like a prevention, harm reduction, and recovery support, uh, you know, kind of all in the same room, depending on, you know, where somebody's at in their journey, how how challenging their their problem is, um, and what their goals are. Um ultimately we do believe that people have the uh you know the right to choose uh you know the goal to choose a goal that's good for them. Um and and And they have a right to change their mind. They have a right to come in at first thinking that they want to try to moderate, um, to explore that and um and then decide they want to abstain. They also have a right to come in thinking they want to abstain and and figure out that um after moderating they're they're feeling good enough and and that's uh you know a good enough goal for themselves. It's not for me to say. Uh it's not for me to tell them what they should do. Um and and so you know, sometimes I think maybe our meetings can can be a good place for folks to to tease out what their goals actually are.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, my the name of my little consulting business, and I don't know if you've caught this from our correspondences, but I work, I'm trying to work with uh workplaces. Right. And the name of my business is Silver Curious on purpose, because uh similar to what you just outlined, if it hadn't been for Steve Dunn, this counselor, who didn't require me to say anything of of that sort and explore it over time, yeah, to where I I made that decision in the end for myself. And now I I'm open about my story and how this has worked for me. But I was back to the pattern idea. It has been my experience meeting people in recovery or in these rooms. Most of us don't like being told what to do. Uh we're usually a pretty you know, this is very broad brush, but we tend to be sort of people uh what's the right words here? Um just uh fiercely independent very often. Um, you know, what uh there's a whole bunch of words that fit there that are escaping me right now. Sure, yeah. But um, but that's what's neat about what I what you've been describing and what my understanding was is that I can go in there and and be there how I want to be. I I'm not faced with what I was faced with, which was the first day, first time, not knowing anything and being forced, not forced, I wasn't forced, but to have the circle go around and say I'm an alcoholic, everybody in the room did it, and now all of a sudden I feel pushed to do that. Right. I almost left. So I'd love to turn now to the conversation because I'm getting there slowly. I'm a big believer that connecting with other people is key as a human being in general, but for people that are having trouble, well, yeah, having trouble with drugs and alcohol, talking to other people is use the words big medicine. Absolutely. So so I'd love to that's a lot for you to to chew on, Pete. We'll take a whack or whatever you want on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, I I I absolutely agree with that. And I actually think it supports uh, you know, I I'm a big believer in both and rather than either or. Um, and you know, about 30 per the last time this was studied, about 30% of smart recovery participants also attended 12-step fellowships. Um, and so uh I I have no um desire to convince anyone that smart recovery is the right path for everyone. Uh I do have uh you know a major desire to make sure that uh it's an option that's available in more communities around the country so that more people have the opportunity to make those connections, right? So if you if you have walked into 12-step fellowship rooms and you haven't been able to find what you needed in those rooms, and so therefore you don't have the connections that would be helpful to you, I want there to be something else you can try to see if that works better and you are able to find those connections. Um and if both work for you, even better, right? Uh if both of them plus recovery dharma work, uh better still, right? Like I think the the more opportunity we have to experience common humanity, a big part of my personal practice to be well as a human uh is practicing self-compassion. Um and Dr. Kristen Neff defines self-compassion as being uh you know th really composed of three parts. Um, one being kind to ourselves rather than judgmental. Uh the second recognizing that we um have things in common with other human beings and instead of thinking that we need to deal with our struggles in isolation, uh, and the third um being that we practice mindfulness rather than over identifying with the negative thoughts and emotions that will inevitably re uh arise because we're humans. Um and and so like that kind actually part of why I sought support in smart recovery, or no, part of why I I sorry, part of why I went to um DBT groups was because of the success I had in smart recovery groups. I was like, you know, I've done this individual therapy thing before, um, but I get so much more out of my group experience in smart recovery than um than I have in my individual therapy to date. Uh why don't I try a group approach to to therapy and see if that kind of plays out uh any differently for me? And I think it did because it's there's something about you know dealing with your own stuff while you are supporting others who are dealing with similar stuff that just makes things make sense better and stick better. And um, yeah, so so all about connection, all about uh and and all about the connection not all being about recovery too. Um, you know, I I joined uh a Saturday morning run group um when I was uh early in my recovery journey. That was an important part of my uh my my balanced life. Um and uh I I do some birding and some pollinator gardening and I connect with other people that are uh you know into those things as well. Uh so I I I think early on, often, you know, your connections tend to be within the recovery uh circle. Uh, but as you kind of explore what it looks like to build a balanced life uh without that addictive behavior, uh then your your world is opened up to a bunch more connections beyond that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, this is all resonating. I feel like I feel compelled to s to pause for a second and say that I I love AA. It was there for me when I needed it. So if I sound like I'm throwing AA under the bust to anybody that's tuned in here, I'm not because you you you're saying yes and exactly is is awesome. And as a matter of fact, I'm wearing this shirt right here. I'm on the board of directors for this local nonprofit, and they're our whole gig is to put people together that are going they go on hikes. Yep. It's like this concept of getting together with other people, you know, going on hikes, going paddleboarding. Yep, I mean, uh that that wasn't a concept for me when I was first starting, and that was in 2013. Yep. And so I didn't know about smart, I didn't know about anything, man. And so, you know, if this uh podcast we're having here lands in somebody's ears or hearts and says, Well, that might be worth checking out. Um, I I figure we're doing some some good, don't you? For sure. Absolutely. All right, so uh let's see what else do I have here that might be interesting to okay, yeah. So my understanding too about smart is that you um it's not just about substances, it's not just about drugs and alcohol, but people can come in to explore other potentially addictive behaviors. Just put some put some parameters around that for me if you would.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, sure. So so because um because our approach is behavioral based, where we're focused on uh behavior change, um, you know, the the tools and discussions that we have in our meetings really can support anyone who is working to change a bat a pattern of behavior that has become challenging for them. So um we don't segregate our meetings by substance type or by substances and other behaviors. Um, everybody comes together in the same uh room. So, you know, in my uh in my meeting the other night in Chapel Hill, we had folks uh who were struggling with uh alcohol, other drugs, eating, uh pornography, um, you know, so you so you often have uh just uh a wide range. Um I think it actually is is pretty powerful to for people to see how consistent the the patterns are no matter what the substance or behavior is. Um and and it broadens that that kind of community of who you consider to be part of your common experience, your common humanity, right? Um it it just grows that to include more and more people, and ultimately you end up realizing that you know somebody else in your life that uh you know that works 24-7 uh is following some of those patterns of behavior with their work. And you know, it it helps you not feel it helps you feel less maybe uniquely broken, as society would suggest sometimes that people who struggle with addictive behaviors are, right? Um it helps you realize that no, in fact, in fact, our brains are working the way that our brains were intended to work, which is to efficiently seek uh, you know, an outcome that's desirable, right? To to seek relief or uh a pleasure in the in the most efficient way possible. Um unfortunately, uh it got too good at that job that it's designed to do and caused a problem for us, and we've had to change that, but uh you know, there wasn't anything inherently like broken about us in in that we headed down that path. Actually, it was our brains doing uh what brains do. Um, you know, and and and so I I I love that we uh you know have that mix of folks in our room. I think it it creates for even um richer conversations about uh trying to change challenging behaviors.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, this is this is super inspiring. So um I'm just I'm just rewinding in my mind and uh to back when I was you know in those last years where um it was so challenging for me. Um I think these these this conversation would have been somewhat hopeful to me. Um, especially if I had um well, I think I think it's safe to say a lot of people have a real brace against the 12-step stuff for a variety of reasons. But this didn't exist for me, Pete. Like I or if it did exist, yeah, I didn't know about it. Well, when did when did Smart Race Recovery start?

SPEAKER_00:

And yeah, so smart is is 31 years old, uh somehow. Um uh really the the more exponential growth has happened in the last five to ten years. Um uh you know, we we were ahead of the curve when it came to uh things like um being accepting of medication-assisted treatment, and uh we we had uh online meetings uh you know long before anybody else was really contemplating online meetings. Um but um or and uh you know the the dominant narratives in our society kept our growth in check. You know, I mean we we were alternative. Um and I think a lot of the societal messaging around mental wellness and uh addiction and recovery have frankly caught up to SMART. Um and we're continuing to lead the way, I think, um, today in certain ways. Um and it's it's not as hard to sell, right? Like folks are more open uh to the fact that that there isn't just one way, um, that ways don't have to be uh either or. Um that and and one thing that I think has been really helpful is is the um the growth of the the like certified peer support movement. Um you know, peer recovery specialists in my mind are some of SMART's biggest champions uh out in the field because it doesn't matter what path they followed uh to achieve their own recovery, they're looking at a human being across the table and and they want to find something that that person finds helpful to offer them, right? Um and and so I see just a lot of eagerness on the part of uh peer recovery sports specialists or whatever that position might be called in in your neck of the woods uh to get trained in another philosophy, to you know, to have those tools in our workbook kind of available to pull out and look at with somebody and uh you know say, hey, let's take a look at this worksheet because it's related to something we've been talking about. Um and if that resonates for you, then maybe you know, we we look for an online smart meeting for you to attend if there's not one in our community yet, or maybe I help get a meeting started in my community because it's it's clear that this is resonating for certain folks. Um and especially, you know, like for some folks in in rural America, like if they're having a hard time finding a group of people that um that they resonate with to support them in their recovery because the the population is limited. Uh you know, there might be one meeting in town or you know, one one community in town that has several meetings, right? But um you know, having access to those online meetings can be really important. And we have some that are specifically for, you know, like we have a meeting every day of the week for veterans and first responders online, right? Um sometimes those first responders aren't gonna want to attend a meeting in their local community for uh obvious reasons, right? Um, and and being able to log on and and connect with other folks in similar professions um you know can can be helpful to them. So um so we're we're um we're also working uh we we have several projects where we're using opioid settlement funds um to get a critical mass of people in a given community trained um and get new meetings started and create a community of practice of individuals in that community who know about SMART, who are hosting some SMART meetings, who can support one another, who can kind of build that fabric of a local community more quickly than if it was just to happen uh kind of organically over a period of 10 years. You know, let's let's kind of shrink that down into uh a couple year long uh effort to where you really have a nice robust uh smart recovery community in a given um location.

SPEAKER_01:

So very cool. Um I've recently started doing some work with uh with a treatment facility out of uh Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah area named uh recovery, recovery ways. I was just on right before this call because I was doing my a little bit of prep. I call I called one of the directors to ask him about uh smart recovery and whether it's part of their gig down there. I'm actually going down there in a couple of weeks to see the facility. Um what was really cool, uh Pete, you'll probably dig hearing this, is they basically got these paths or these mods, they could they can choose their own adventure kind of a thing. Yep. And one of them is smart recovery. That's awesome. I'm gonna be meeting those folks in a couple of weeks and hearing I'm I'm really curious about like we've got 50 people, what percentage are going to which ones, right? Yeah, yeah. Because I really do believe that and you've alluded to this, we're talking about it, is is that there's a lot of ways to do this. And so having different ideas or different ways to do it, and what is compelling to one person may not be compelling to another, etc. If you're in the muck, man, knowing that there's like more than one one horse to ride it useful, don't you think?

SPEAKER_00:

For sure. And you know, we've talked about multiple pathways for a while, Brett, right? Like it's been this kind of like lingo that's been out there for a while. Um I I think smart has made it about as easy as it can get to add another pathway to the mix, right? Like, and and that's my that's been one of my goals, is like you you really don't have an excuse at this point, in my opinion, to say uh we only do 12-step. Like I I because I I don't I'm I just don't think that makes sense for uh clients. Like you know, even if it's everybody does 12-step and uh we also offer smart recovery tools, then you're you're improving the tools that your your clients have. Um so uh yeah, that's one of my goals is to make it as easy as possible for professional uh organizations, for treatment organizations and and others to uh to embrace another pathway um you know that's real a real relatively light lift because our tools are consistent with many of the things that have been have been included in their their training as practitioners, whether they're you know C ADCs or uh social workers or counselors or whatever training they had, they likely learned a lot of the same concepts that are included in our program already. Um so it's a pretty light lift to add uh our pathway to their tool belt.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, I can tell you this for sure. As soon as this is over, I'm gonna be ordering a copy of all the books. Uh because I I I need to I need to know more about this. Uh like I told I told on myself to use, like, how do I not know more about this? And especially since I love the science, I love I love I loved learning about the disease model. You know, I've had several addiction doctors on my on my podcast, and it's like if if I could have known some of those things earlier on, like you referred to our brains wanting to do things to keep us safe, to you know, find pleasure, et cetera. And just so happens that you know mine got hijacked for for a variety of reasons to where I'd misunderstood what uh was really happening there. And uh and that really took some heat off of me, even though it was after I'd been sober a while. And I've shared that closed conference with people um who are you know coming into this, and it tends to be really helpful to go, oh my goodness, this really is a medical, can be considered a medical condition. Most of the main uh science places say it is, and boy, that takes some heat off, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it does. And and I think we can um we can keep being flexible in in allowing people to conceptualize it in a way that is most helpful to them, right? Um so for some people, some people find it really helpful to conceptualize their addictive behavior as uh a disorder or disease. Other people resist that. And and and I understand why. Um, in part I understand why, because ultimately when when presented with treatment options um and and what they need to do, um they're asked to make choices, um, right? They're asked to to follow through on commitments that they make. Um and and to do that, they need to have some agency. So if they, you know, for some people, if they adopt disorder or disease as kind of the the way that they conceptualize their addiction, they find it harder to accept that they have agency to make choices at a point in time, right? Um, and and so I I respect folks who land everywhere on that continuum of uh how I choose to think about this challenge. I I don't at all doubt that everybody kind of can can agree on it's a complex biopsychosocial phenomenon. Um, and we just don't know for each one of us, you know, what mix of biopsycho and social uh is at play. It's gonna look different in your brain than it looks in my brain, than it looks in somebody else's brain. And and by the way, it's not just our brains, it's how our brains. Are connected to the rest of our nervous system. And, you know, so so there's just so much complexity there that I sometimes I think we in the in the recovery movement spend a lot of time debating what addiction is and debating what recovery is. And and and those are important questions for somebody to answer. But for me, I like to stay kind of on the practical side of things and say this is a complex thing. We're unique human beings. And we all deserve to have choices in front of us in terms of how to try to make our way to a healthier place in our lives.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I I think that's great. So I what a what an awesome conversation. It's exceeded what I was hoping, Pete. Obviously, I'm going to put some links in here, but I would like to give some empowerment to somebody who's listening to this who's either a family, like the the spectrum, if you will. The family member, the person who would like to learn more for themselves, maybe they're, you know, want to walk into a meeting, or maybe they want to go to an online meeting. I'm sure the website says it all, but I'd love to give you the opportunity to say, if you want to learn more, these are a few things that I would do.

SPEAKER_00:

Definitely. Uh I think first uh I would recommend uh trying out a meeting. Um, you know, there there are some larger online meetings that you can attend and very easily just observe, uh, you know, see what the environment is like, uh get a taste for it. Um uh I would uh you know suggest that you might uh purchase the handbook, take a read, uh, you know, put pen to paper, you know, even if it seems a little corny or or you know uh if you're you're unsure you really want to take the time to do the exercises uh you know with a pen, I I suggest doing so. For me, I found that uh when I when I did put pen to paper, uh I had a harder time lying to myself. Um you know, it because when you write it down, like you're you're making a record of your lie if you're lying, right? Um and and so for me anyway, that was a big part of uh you know finally having some intellectual rigor and and some honesty with myself that I could then you know, you can't change if you haven't accepted where you're starting from, right? Um, and uh and so that was an important piece for me. Um and and then yeah, like don't limit yourself to to smart or 12 steps or or any other uh recovery uh specific support. Uh, you know, take some risks uh in terms of uh you know, try something new, uh see if it fills your cup, see if you make a connection that's helpful. Um and uh you know, you never know what step will kind of get you uh headed in in the right direction uh for you motivationally.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'd love to close this by just uh because we've we've we've gone on quite a journey. Uh I'll I will share with those that have made it this far that um getting to abstinence for me was one of the greatest gifts I've ever encountered, and I can enjoy it every hour of every day. That would have sounded like Martian to me. That would have sounded like a crazy town. In fact, I would have probably been kind of ticked off and close a laptop or whatever. But that's true for me. How about you? How how how's how's life been for you since you've found your way into a into this program and and and made some changes?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I would say um uh my life is a richer experience uh without kind of the dulling effect of uh alcohol. Um so I'm I'm able to fully experience uh uh the the beautiful things in life. I'm looking out at the the fall colors here in North Carolina, um uh and um I'm better able to surf the the challenging uh parts of life. Um uh both uh both of those are enhanced by the absence of of alcohol for me. Um and you know, I I don't that doesn't mean I think that other people need to, right? Um you know, other people may be able to successfully moderate and uh and enjoy those same things, and I'm I'm I'm joyful for them. I'm I'm I'm grateful that they're able to do that. Um and and I that's why I like to when I talk about lived experience as it relates to myself, I always make sure I put the the word uh before that. I have a lived experience, right? Um, and I don't universalize that to other people because I'm as unique uh as any other human. I just know you know that I'm happy with what I've built here. Um and and I want to help other people figure that out for themselves, whatever that you know looks like for them.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, Pete, this has been a great conversation. Super, super grateful you've taken some time and really nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_00:

Um nice to meet you too, Brett.

SPEAKER_01:

Hope to send some traffic to the website, hope to send some people to more smart stuff. And I and I personally am going to learn a lot more after this call. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Hope we can keep talking.