Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins

From Stigma To Story: Joseph Green On Language, Art, And Healing

• Brett Lovins • Season 3 • Episode 9

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What if the right words could loosen shame’s grip and make change feel possible? That’s the question we chase with poet, educator, and “narrative disruptor” Joseph Green as we unpack how labels shape identity, how language can block help or build it, and why redefining recovery around health and contribution saves lives.

We dig into a more generous frame: recovery as the ongoing practice of seeking health, adding value, and designing supports that fit real bodies and real lives, including medication-assisted treatment and mental health meds. Joseph shares his own regimen without shame and talks about building a tripod of care - bio support, daily practices, and honest relationships - so anxiety no longer leads.

Art runs through the story. Joseph traces how performance anxiety fused with substances in college, how quitting meant stepping off stage, and how purpose brought him back. A friend’s death, a hotel room, and a poem became a literal turning point - choosing craft over the bar and using art to serve people instead of ego. We explore youth work, from coaching debate to leading a nonprofit that powered poetry slams and classroom programs across dozens of schools. He reflects on intergenerational community and how creative expression gives teens language to weather their storms.

At home, Joseph and his family practice openness. He talks with his kids about addiction in plain words, teaches breathing and chanting, and centers expression over suppression. The conversation builds to a live spoken word performance - raw, precise, and unforgettable - on telling the hard truths that can keep someone alive. Come for the poetry, stay for the practical tools, and leave with a new way to talk about recovery, stigma, and the everyday rituals that make healing stick.

If this moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your favorite line from the poem. Your words help more people find theirs.

More info on Joseph Green:

LMS Voice - Founded by award-winning storyteller Joseph Green, LMSvoice empowers organizations to transform harmful narratives into stories of connection and equity.

Joseph on LinkedIn

Other useful links from Brett:

  • Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
  • Brett's YouTube channel
  • Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
  • Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
  • Data on SUD in the US (2024) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
  • Understand Substance Use Disorders and Stigma (1 hour video) - learn about the brain science behind substance use disorders and how to address stigma with Dr. Brian Fuehrlein MD, PhD, Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Yale School of Medicine.
SPEAKER_00:

All right, Joseph Green. Here we are. We've talked about this a few times, and I am stoked to have you come and meet my audience and them to meet you through the magic of podcasting and uh YouTube channel stuff. So we've known each other a bit. Folks that are listening won't know you. So I'd love for you to introduce yourself if that's a if that's a cool way for you to start. I dig that.

SPEAKER_01:

Hello, people who don't know me yet. My name is Joseph Green, and I would like you to see me as a father, as a partner, as an artistic activist, as a narrative disruptor, and as someone who believes in the power of story to make the world a better place.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a great way to start. And and I've I've heard this over and over again, and I just love to give get some lessons on this. You say often people will say, I'm a person in long-term recovery, and I want you to see me as. And I know you're a you're a wordsmith guy, right? So um I've tried to get comfortable with that in my own language, and I'd love some I'd love some thoughts on that, on on why it is you do that and what what that sets up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So at their very core or their very essence, words are symbols that mean something. And in this world, especially now, in my by in this world currently, it seems as if depending on what silo you're in, words mean different things. And when we talk about disrupting stigma, especially as it pertains to people who are in recovery or people who are in active use, or just anything that has to do with substances, a lot of times, because of how we've been fed the images through media and wherever else you find these things, um through the language that your parents use, through the the way that your your your teacher spoke about it, or whatever it may be, when I say person in recovery, I don't know what you see. Right? And while I and a bunch of people who I've sat in circles with find great honor and pride in that title, I think sometimes it is important to reconfigure, restabilize, or restate in public so that when I say or get to that part of, and I'm also a person in long-term recovery, if that's something I choose to say in a particular time. All of those things that I said before are that, right? And are because of that. And so it also opens a space when I'm doing a presentation and I don't get to immediately have this moment where we're going back and forth. It gives me the beginnings of the unraveling of the infinite person that I am. You know, I contain multitudes. So which one of these things that I spoke of am I going to, you know, then elaborate on as we have this conversation? Um, as opposed to, you know, I I do the so I was just with a group of social workers and we were doing a workshop, a storytelling workshop. And I said, social worker doesn't mean the same thing to everybody. Someone says social worker, you think hero, we're in the trenches, and then you say social worker in a room full of people, and someone in there has had a family broken apart, and they blame a social worker, right? So what is it that you actually do at your essence, right? And it's like, you know, I fight for people. I believe in um, I believe in growing people as a community. I believe in investing in families. I believe, you know, whatever it is that you you believe in um transcends the title that you have. And so I I play around with it. I'm still, it's not a perfect art where I'm like, this is how it works and this is how you should do it. Um sometimes I'm a little more abstract and sometimes I'm a little more um concrete. It depends on the mood and uh and the audience, actually. So with your audience of people who didn't know me very well, I think I use a lot more concrete terms to express what's important to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and and uh so our our paths cross in a few wonderful and odd and synchronistic ways. And and uh and here we are. Um so I so I do happen to know too that that um not to put words in your mouth, but this idea that you know that we're in both in long-term recovery has has a meaning. And if if you're open to exploring that a little bit, I'd I'd love to know what what long-term recovery means to you. Um because it's I always take my story with me. I always remember where I was when these words would pop up and how I felt when I was on the other side of the line where I got, in my case, to sobriety. And that would have been a charge word. In fact, that was a charged word for about two years in. So so I think it's worthwhile, particularly if somebody's snuck in here to listen to this and they're they're grappling with some of these words, it might be worthwhile to bat that one around a little bit. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I don't mind. I don't mind. I tell you, it does make me nervous. Uh it makes me nervous, not because, well, if this were a few years ago, it would make me nervous because I, as somebody who is um present in and employed in many different spaces within the recovery community, I know that there are folks in our space who take their definition of the word recovery very seriously, as if it were the only definition of the word recovery. And I would be concerned about being uh well, I guess the popular term now is um canceled, right? But I'm past that in my own personal development as a person and and as a person in recovery. And so when I say I'm nervous about it now, what makes me nervous about that question is that person who is listening and is like on the brink of needing to be completely without substance, right? And and and knowing that that step is something that's going to save their lives, or someone who has taken that step is on the other side of making that decision and is unsure because there's a long period of. I think after 30 years, there's still some people who have moments, right? No matter how long it's like, you know, was I tripping? Like on the other side, is it okay? Can I go back to that space? Was it because what I'm feeling right now is too heavy or too hard or whatever it may be. So I'm I'm nervous because I know that our words affect people. And depending on how the disease is living inside of you, I could say something innocuous, something that was innocent. And someone could hold on to that and be like, actually, well, Joseph said, you know, this is what recovery is. And like what I'm doing right now is way too hard. So I'm gonna try that to see. So that's why I and I just want to preface that this thought, this conversation, this idea is not something that I take very lightly. Um, I don't share a sobriety date when I talk about recovery because I was seeking healing before I found sobriety, and I count that as part of recovery. I know people who are smoking marijuana so that they can stay away from meth. I consider them in recovery because they're seeking healing. Um, and I know people who, if they have another drop of alcohol, are going to put themselves into a binge and into a hospital and maybe even to a casket. And they are also in recovery, right? And so um for me, being in long-term recovery means you are seeking with the entirety or as much of your being as you can muster to live a healthy life where you add value to your community, to the world around you, and to yourself. Now, what does that look like to you? Right? What does that have to be? For me, there are certain things that I can't do to be that healthy, active person. It's different for me than it is for you. And I think that is something that is really important for people and people who design programs to understand. Um, so yeah, I I and and I don't know how roundabout that was, but that's it's um, it's not intentionally vague. I think it's intentionally open to interpretation.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I love it. If I had a nickel for every time I said at a meeting, you know, words get in the way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And you just you just pointed out they also are incredible delivery mechanisms as well, right? But I I think words got in the way for a long time for me. And words got in the way once I got sober, right? And so, so, so it's an ongoing thing. And so I I do like asking that because uh and I do like that it was vague. That's you know, I've I've asked that question a hundred times, man. That was uh that was a fun exploration right there.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I I will also say it's it's a really I work with a lot of young people, and the word sobriety is like Voldemort to them, right? Like you hear that, and it's like, no, I I don't want any part of that, right? Many people need to reform their relationship to substances. But if the only thing that's on the other side of that reformation is not doing any substances, as you said, that word can get in the way. Maybe that is where they need to be, right? Maybe that is, but you're not gonna get them to be a part of the conversation if you start off with language that confines, right? Language that that that takes away or speaks in the negative or speaks of the negative, right? You want to draw people to help by abundance. This is what's over here for you. This is what's waiting for you. Look at what you'll have when you come to this space. So, like, even in the introduction, like father, activist, storyteller, all of these things, because I am a person in long-term recovery, right? Um, I can sustain them, I can keep them, I get to be those things. If you would have asked me what I was when it all fell apart, as it were, at the height of active use. I was I was aspiring maybe to hopefully one day be some of those things. Um, you know, I can't take away being a son from my mother, but I definitely didn't feel like a son to my mother, if that makes sense. So I wanted those things. I wanted to have those things, and that is what sort of pulled me into my first room, if you will, wanting to be wanted to be better at those things before I lost them completely or a chance of having them completely.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I know a couple more things about you. I'd love to uh pull a string. Let's pull a string to something here. So so I happen to know that you're a spoken word artist, right? And I happen to know that you do a lot of presenting to reiterate language is is a big part of your life. And and in our previous setups for this call that we're having together here, we've talked about being artists. And so I I'd love to um you can take it wherever you want. I am curious if that thread of being a spoken word artist continued through when you uh define yourself as getting into recovery. Has it always been there? Did it ever couple with your substances? And was there ever problematic uh disconnecting from that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Uh so being out in front of people is a part of my identity that I can trace back to like preschool. And I don't remember the presentation. I was told I was dressed as a duck. But I was told that story so much, and it brought my family so much joy. I think like many young people, like I first found my first passion in things that made my parents happy, right? And not even not in like a twisted or weird way, it was just like, oh, I did this thing, and like, oh, it makes the person who I love more than anyone happy. I want to associate that with who I am. And so I sought chances to be in front of people, and I don't think I ever really thought about it until I got to like middle school and high school, and I started to develop, and I didn't know this is what I was developing, but I started to develop or succumb to uh uh extreme anxiety. And and if you knew me back then, this would might come as a shock to you because it's not something that I wore out on my on my sleeve. Uh I I kept pushing myself into performance space. I was a theater kid. Um, I did speech and debate. Uh I ran for public office or school office. You know, I did all of these things because it was an identity that I held, but it was in conflict with what my body was telling me. So when I made made it to college, I hadn't had I hadn't drank or smoked, I'd done, I'd done none no substances up until I was uh the second semester of my college year, uh first my freshman year. And I remember seeing professors smoke weed at parties and and you know, obviously drinking is a big part of many college campuses. And I remember when I finally started drinking how you hear this story a lot, right? And and it's really sad because a lot of times it happens when people are very young. Um, you know, I I had I took a sip from my parents' liquor cabinet and the buzzing stopped. Right? Like, hold on, this is what people feel like? This is like this is this is like so all those people who just like glide through existence being able to ask for what they want and they know what to say to the girl and they know how to, you know, in you know, prepare for the audition without throwing up before like these people like this. And so I think really early on in my professional artistic or college career, I started to associate drinking and and and and doing drugs with part of my ritual to be an artist. Before I had words for anxiety, before I had words for depression, before I had words for disorder or trauma or whatever, I had medicine. Um and I didn't have to ask anybody about it, and I didn't have to tell anyone what hurt to get it. In fact, I was celebrated. The more I did, the the the more I acted out, the more I saw social acceptance. So when it came time to walk away, I also had to walk away from art. I didn't see it coming. I honestly thought it'd be something that I was gonna be able to hold on to. Like I'm gonna be able to do art in my early recovery as a way to stay on the straight and narrow, but then my art was so intertwined with performing and I couldn't get on a stage. Barely have a conversation. So it took me maybe a year, year and a half, and it was it was a friend who passed away and a poem that I wrote for that person, and an open mic in DC, Northern Virginia, and a re configuration, a new understanding, an altered perception of what my purpose with art was. I was at a point where I was no longer expecting to be a young, famous artist. And so if art was still going to have a place in my life, it was going to have to find a different, a different room to live in, I guess. And in this room, I go in when I have a reason to, when I have purpose to. I I turn to my art when I need to create something for somebody I care about. I turn to my art when there's a cause that really matters to me, and I want to share about that cause in a way that I think is going to be really effective to whoever's listening. Um I sometimes I go for my own mental health. Um, but a lot of my personal relationship with art is as a tool to affect change. And so uh I I really feel much better and actually am much more successful um as an artist than I was beforehand, when it was more about the glorif glorifying of me and the obtaining of some, you know, twisted fantasy of what stardom or fame or whatever that looked like um when I was a much younger man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you're you know, as these things tend to go, man, you just told part of my story, you know, these the and that's the thing about being around people in recovery, especially in this case, we're you know, two people that you know, you could see the guitars in the background. You know, I've I've got a connection to music, and you know, my art ran right through that. And, or vice versa, I should say. And so the way you just frame that up is really, really cool and interesting. Um, in a in a different room. Has to be in a different room. I I like that uh different manifestation because it took me a long time to find my way back to it as well. Or it, or maybe it's to find its way back to me. I'm not sure how that goes.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh well, you know, my house got bigger.

SPEAKER_00:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

I had a son. Um I was active in my family again. I was working with young people. Uh, you know I in my early 20s, I I was just in a room of spoken word artists, first actor, then spoken word artist. Like that was the room, and it traveled with me wherever I went. And yeah, the I think the more complex my understanding of who I was became, the less important it became to be the only thing that was in my life, right? Like, um, like if you meet 22-year-old, 25, 26, 27-year-old Joseph, this is heresy. It's just the art. It's just the art. Um, you know, and I don't know how many things I left broken in my wake for just the art. But, you know, I I look at it and I'm like, I think of if you watch the um the the Michael Jordan um uh thing on Netflix recently. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I look at someone who is that accomplished at other thing, right? And you can't take any of it from them. You never could, right? I mean, it's been 15, I don't know how many years since he's been in, and he's still no one's no one's taking him out of the conversation with the top three for the next 50 years. Um, but it's lonely at the top.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I looked at his the interview of him looking at his friends or associates talking about him while he was reading this iPad, you know, because there's certain people that he can't even be in the same room with because of what the relationship. And so I don't I don't make this with a judgment. I make it as a I tried to be that singularly minded about something, and I'm not built that way. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump back to something you said a few minutes ago. Please do. Um so I think I heard you talk about anxiety um and and not having a word for it back then, right? And then having a word for it, and I think I heard you say that you know you found that alcohol was a was a was a medicine or you know, something to to calm that down or whatever, which I can totally relate to. And you know what? That's typical. Like, you know, co-curring conditions are often what people like me and you, sounds like, find substances useful for until they're no good. So fast forward to today, Joseph. How's your anxiety now? And what how do you think about uh mental health and and not having, you know, I like to use the golem term of the precious, not having the precious anymore. Uh anything in there that you you'd be willing to explore?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, you know let's go back to the I don't like to share my sobriety date. Uh I'm still on drugs. Uh I I take a pill, I take three pills every day, one of them for my anxiety. Uh and I am not ashamed of that. I don't, I don't, I don't, um, I don't run from telling people about it. Actually, I run to tell people about it because this is the program that is working for me. I I don't want people to punish themselves for needing help, right? And that's where I was at the beginning, like because I was the shame was there, right? And the the societal pressure to, you know, just drop it all. I don't think I'm this far into recovery without medication, right? And so who am I to say someone on, you know, MAT is like, I'm I so am I, right? Just not the same thing. Um, and so add that to what I, you know, I have a very busy life. Uh I I try to be healthy, but in the same way that like recovery is a journey, a practice, so is being healthy. And so I'm nowadays, I'm more than not also getting up there in in years. And so, like, what my young body could recover from quickly, my old body reminds me of every 15 minutes. Uh, and so the the anxiety is all, and I and it seems like I it for someone who may have just jumped in or is like, where is he going with this? The anxiety is wrapped in every fiber of my being, right? If my body is unhealthy, my mind is unhealthy because my mind is my body, right? And that it took a long time for me to understand that. And so just taking a pill is not enough, right? You actually have to get up and move around. You actually have to address the areas in your life where there's high stress and tension. You actually have to put people in your life that like care for you and will tell you when you need to sit down and and will listen to you when you need to talk. You need to have a therapist. I need to get another therapist. You know, I mean that like when I do have one, you know, it is it is uh uh uh is a part of the tripod, right? So yeah, it's it's it's a journey. It will be a journey, I imagine, for the rest of my life. But at this moment, I can say with 100% certainty that I almost never do something based off of anxiety. Right? And I think that is a monumental term. Like if I, speaking of former Joseph, if I were to tell 27-year-old Joseph that he could live in a world where he could make decisions based off of what he wanted, what was good for him, uh, what brought him joy, as opposed to what he felt pressured to do, what he felt he had to overcome because society told him as a man he shouldn't be scared of those things. Like, if I could have told him that, what a gift that would be. And which is also why, like, I'm here, right? Like, I'm not here. Like, well, you know, if zero people hear this, I will say this was a great hour spent having a wonderful conversation. But ultimately, I hope people do hear this. I hope the 23, 1, 18, 15-year-old version of somebody hears this and asks themselves a question. Is there a better way than the path that I'm taking if this doesn't feel right? So I find value in that, speaking of like giving back to the world and the community.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. Uh, there's so many things. So, so I'm just gonna point out that one of the things that I know you from is is a is a uh documentary called Tipping the Pain Scale, which I can wholeheartedly uh endorse and encourage people to see. And one of the things that I see in that documentary with you, Joseph, and you alluded to a little bit ago and just now again, is you I think it's safe to say your interest in and your in interfacing with younger people, because in that documentary, you're in front of a group of younger people. Um, I don't get the opportunity to be there much. Can you bring stories from from tell me what that world is like? You alluded to a couple things. I anything you got on that, I'd be super curious on. You know, it's funny you say that.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh so I had a tipping the pain scale uh Twilight Zone moment or full circle moment. Uh Twilight Zone scenes with maybe a little negative kind of like a full circle moment this morning. This morning, uh so part of what I do right now is um I I help run a production studio and we're working on a documentary about a local neighborhood in DC called Berry Farms. And so yesterday we were at a church in that neighborhood recording some interviews with uh a few older citizens that were live in the 40s and 50s in DC. We took that footage to a high school in DC and showed it to some students and recorded their responses to it, right? And all that's gonna be part of this project that we're we've been hired to do. And Jeff Riley, the director of um Tipping the Pain Scale, text me in the middle of this. Like, I'm holding my camera, I'm looking at students, and I'm having a flashback to when I was being filmed by Jeff in a classroom. And it's about something completely random. And I was like, dude, it is no coincidence that the universe has put you through to me right now in this moment. And it was just it felt really good to to respond to him. I took a quick video where I was and sent to him, and it was like, yo, you're a part of this. Um so to go back to your original question, it it is um there is no way to build a successful society without continuous conversation and building of community and networking between the generations of humans that exist in that society. And so that's a really that's a a realization that I came to after doing this work. It's not like I understood that and went into it. Um I got back from living in New York. I was living with my parents at like 28, 29. I was working at a goals gym making the smoothies, uh, trying to figure out what my life and recovery was going to look like. And I got a phone call from a former teacher of mine. She was really young when I was in high school, I think it was her first year of teaching, and she coached my speech and debate team. And she was like, hey, if you're in town, I need help with our speech and debate team. Would you, you know, want to come and you know, listen to some kids, you know, give their presentations? And and she hired me as a coach, right? And like, keep in mind, this is maybe six months after I was rejected from a job for failing a drug test. Um, right. And so, like, And we which would have been which would have been working with young people also. And like the idea that I had this opportunity, that that incident in New York wasn't something that became a criminal record. And I still had an opportunity like to find this purpose in life. And I went in and I I I started working with these young people. And, you know, it reminded me of who I was because whatever character I had on, whatever version of myself I was trying to walk confidently inside of, inside of me was a 150-pound foot one 12th grader who graduated high school. You know, a stiff wind could have blown me over. And I was the drama kid who tried to play football because he thought his dad would like it. You know, still got made fun of for being like see-through, basically, how thin I was. You know, it to work with these young kids. It's like four or five young people, but like they're on the fringe also. And I didn't have a me. And for them to have a me, and for me to see myself reflected in them, uh, it was the beginning of my understanding of how important it is for us to go back and to give back. And I think so many people run from their childhood, um, not because they had awful childhoods, but because the way society sets up adult as this like all having, all knowing, all doing whatever we want space. And so to be able to go back to young people and and and to be in community with them and to realize that I'm getting as much out of this as I'm probably getting more out of this, you know, because not only am I getting something, but I'm able to like have power and privilege to like flip this feeling and experience into telling stories to other people about this and getting more people to participate and building bigger programs. And from that, it went from being, you know, this coach to four or five young people to starting an after-school creative writing program nonprofit that was serving 30 schools at its height and held the largest youth poetry slam on the East Coast five years in a row and did performances at the Kennedy Center, made it rest in peace, and all of the other things that we were able to do because of that feeling, right? And knowing, and one of the things I got out of being in recovery is like if you got a good feeling and it creates and doesn't destroy, go. Go to that space and and and serve that and let that be your purpose. And so it hasn't always been easy. I've definitely learned a lot of lessons. I've done harm in this space, but I I think also part of being in recovery is realizing that you've never done anything perfect. It's not a reason to stop, right? And so I think that I have been able to learn from it and grow from it and share and do professional developments with teachers and travel the country and give keynotes and help organizations develop curriculum. And it it all spurred from a humbleness that I first cursed having, but am now eternally grateful for. So yeah, I I don't work with youth as directly as I used to. Um, I think part of that is just like I have my own kids now, and that's you know, its own um situation, but in that situation, like a bad thing, but like it's hard to give 150% to a bunch of young people and also have two at home waiting for you. So I've had to find a new violent, a new balance, but part of that balance is creating things for other people to do work in those spaces. Um so yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I love it. Um let's just let's just uh walk right into that one a little bit. So um I love one of the things that I I'm kind of insistent on is with my I don't have any kids, but I've got nieces and nephews. And I I'm now that I've gotten over my shame stigma of my own and I'm recovering out loud, which I think is an awesome collection of words. Um, you know, I I'm very transparent with them and and I don't lie about it either. I don't like I I I tell the truth whenever I'm asked. I'm curious, uh, how is I don't know how old your your kids are, but how how's the how are those conversations in your house? So my children are 11 and 5. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Last year I published a graphic novel about my recovery. My 11-year-old loves graphic novels. So there was that that he was he was probably three when I started working on it. So it wasn't like I'm gonna do this because, but I knew that if I publish this thing, it was gonna get in front of him. Uh, which in our household was not a surprise because it is something that we talk about. Um as often as is necessary, right? Like it's not something that I arbitrarily bring into a space, like, son, listen, let me tell you stories about when daddy did drugs. But I see behaviors in him that remind me of myself. And I I try my best to make space for that and to try to explain what I see and to offer him. So, for example, um I I practice Buddhism, and part of that is chanting. And his his bio, my youngest son's biological mother, which is not my wife, um, also, and my wife actually also, but um we we would chant. I would chant um in the morning, and my son would come and you know, three-year-old, he was curious, what is going on? What is this thing that you're doing? Anything that you're not paying attention to me, so what is this? Uh and he would sit with me, and you know, maybe for two minutes or less or whatever before he started playing with the stuff and the Gohanzan and like, you know, knocking things over, but I could tell like there was some vibration that he was catching that that meant something to him. And so that was the beginning of us trying to give him practices that we didn't have. So just breathing through it. Breathe through it. He's wilding out, sit down. We don't have to go anywhere. We don't have to finish anything right now. Finish what you're what are you feeling? I need you to use your words to tell me what you're feeling. It's okay what you're feeling. Here's a pen, here's a pencil, here's a piece of paper. Go express all the time, every day, whenever you need to. Um you know, I I think there's this misconception that when we meet our children where they are, that we're somehow making them softer. Um I see my son now, he's 11. He has been so the pandemic kid. He has two households. He has gone to four different schools. He's he'll be starting this, he's in the sixth grade right now. So he'll be going to some of these four different schools, four different elementary schools. He has like, because both of his parents are married. Uh, he has like 12 grandparents. Um uh he's he he got bullied out of a school because his his mother is married to a woman, and that was something that was um used to hurt him in that space. And he is one of the most talented, most charming, most emotionally mature. And this is not me like my son. It's like I'm in awe of this human. And I know that he is that way because of what we've poured into him. And so when people say, Do you talk to your kid about addiction? Yeah, but not in the way that you think, right? I do tell him about the mis, the things that I did and some of the mistakes that I made and some of the love I wish I had received. Um, but it's not an empty story of harm. It's here are keys to living a better life that were torn from these decisions and choices and sometimes traumas that I had no choice in. And I know the life life is not going to be easy for you. But like, if you can remain graceful and choose joy in the midst of the inevitable storm, even if you do fall into addiction one day, you have everything you need to fall out of it. And so that's that's what we talk about.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. Well, we're we're aiming towards the uh the end of this. Sorry, that gets me a little what?

SPEAKER_01:

Got a little emotional. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just um dude's seven. I mean, sorry, he's going into seventh grade. It's just like they are an incredible, incredible person. And um yeah. Oh, yeah, cool. I'm good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Seventh grade was that was a tough year for me. Uh right on. Uh so so I'd love to I'd love to start to head head toward the exit here. Um, and one of the things that I, you know, I always like to give, you know, you the opportunity. Is there anything you'd like to share with people in terms of uh where they can find more of your stuff? Um, you know, that kind of that yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

If you're if you're I mean, if you're listening to this and something I said has um tickled your fancy, uh I have a website, the letters LMS, as in Larry Marysamvoice.com. I'm sure wherever you're viewing this, there'll be a link to that. Um there's uh all my social media is on the page. Come check out what we're doing, the work that we're doing. And uh and all of the poems and things that I do are on my YouTube page. So uh they're free to view, and hopefully you share them. And if there's anything that you think that you want to talk to me about, I'm real easy to find.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And that might be the end, but what I'd love to offer you if if you're up for it, is to uh is to do a spoken word thing for from for this audience. Are you up for that or is that uh is that a bridge too far?

SPEAKER_01:

No, no. Um it's not a bridge too far. Uh do um because I have not I have not stretched my wings in a few months now, um, which typically happens at the end of the year to the beginning of the year. Um and I've been doing a lot more storytelling than poetry, but uh I I I I'll never forget this poem. So um just a little context. I I I I referred to this poem earlier when a friend of mine passed away uh in and early along in my recovery, and I went to their funeral in New York, and after the funeral, everyone was gonna go back to the bar that I used to work at and where the height of my addiction laid its reared its head, and I knew enough about myself at that point that if I went back to the bar, I was gonna have a drink, and I would excuse that drink because in the memory, right? And then that drink would end up being a line and a line and a line and a line. Right. I when I tell this story to young people, I say sometimes we feel losses that create holes that can't be filled in. But if you try to fill it in with something that hurts you, there's a chance that you're going to fall into that hole yourself. I had heard enough stories of people who had been off of substances for year, month, whatever, they went back because something bad happened, they tried to and you don't make it out of that situation. So I decided to go back to my hotel room, and that's where I wrote the first draft of this poem. And when I say to people that poetry saved my life, there's the figurative, and then this is the literal. The last time I saw you alive, I wish I would have talked ugly to you. Said, put the straw down. No, I don't want to take another line. I should be writing them. My friend, you are a composer of music and magic. Instruct your limbs to serve a purpose greater than self-indulgence. Do not be fooled into thinking your pain has sharper teeth than anyone else's. I had a chance, but said nothing because I was high. This is how I got started. A bottle of jack and a mirror, memories and scissors, dreams drenched in ether sliced by razors, potential roll like$20 bills, numbing the feeling on the tip of my tongue that I or this tongue should be serving a greater purpose. In the last ditch attempt at self-assessment, I decided to look at my life through the eyes of loved ones, for they see everything, especially the ugly. From years of drug use, from lying with to lying to angels, friends, I had forsaken taking so much more than I had given, I had streamlined self-centeredness into a science. But there was a righteousness there, a willingness to craft this illness through alchemy and poetry into a sear stone, but honestly. How could I speak ugly to you when I was yet to speak it to myself? In these nightmares of hindsight, there is no poetry. No alliterations to soften the blow. Some realities have no simile. Truth is like truth. How could I form my lips to call your suicide a tragedy when I left you alone in that room? Kept company by narcotics and a thousand ghost straped in your disappointments. I can only imagine all the voices you heard. All but mine. Smear makeup onto disgust if you must trust the truth is seldom pretty, but she is always beautiful. It is in times like these that I need you to please talk ugly to me. My pain needs it. Too many times we caress sadness when it needs to be shaken, torn from its place of comfort, forced to grow wings to survive. Don't just tell me I can grow up and be whatever I want. Tell me that whatever I want better be something I'm willing to achieve, that dreams will dissipate under the weight of addiction, and that there is a distinct difference between living like a rock star and actually being one. Sometimes, no matter how many poems you've written, you will feel like nothing more than a cokehead and a poser. Fear not. We are all divinely flawed individuals, perfectly ugly. There's no point hiding behind pretty lies. We are the sum of the scars that hold together the remainder of our pretty pieces. The last time I saw you alive, I wish I would have talked ugly to you. It would have been the most beautiful thing. I never said.

SPEAKER_00:

There you go. Thanks for your time. Thanks for your friendship, Joseph. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's always nice to be in company with people who feel in a similar way. You don't need to explain a lot. So that's good.

SPEAKER_00:

Take care, man.

SPEAKER_01:

Till next time.