Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins

Chris Haugen - Three Years Sober and Playing Better Than Ever

• Brett Lovins

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Chris Haugen's transformation from a touring guitarist juggling substance issues to a focused recording artist with nearly half a million monthly Spotify listeners stands as powerful testimony to what happens when creative energy finds proper channeling.

"Taking a lot of chaotic energy and streaming it down to one solid, focused beam" is how Chris describes his current creative process three years into sobriety. The results speak volumes—his monthly listeners jumped from 3,000 to 480,000, a testament not to diminished creativity but to enhanced focus and artistic direction.

The conversation explores Chris's journey through recovery, including his initial resistance to labels and programs. What makes this story particularly compelling is his honesty about the subtle whispers that preceded his decision to get sober—what he calls "guardian angel moments" where circumstances mysteriously intervened just as he was about to make destructive choices. One night at a Zen monastery, his car lights inexplicably failed as he contemplated driving to a liquor store, a small intervention that spoke volumes.

Perhaps most encouraging is Chris's experience finding community with other musicians who don't drink—a natural gravitation toward healthier environments that nurture rather than threaten his growth. His poetic description of sobriety as "a blinking neon light that never turns off, a glass of water balanced on my head, a good surf lesson, a clear mind" captures the vigilance, responsibility, self-care, and clarity that come with the journey.

Want to experience the musical results of this transformation? Check out Chris Haugen's compositions on Spotify or catch him performing at Imagine Fest on Orcas Island. His journey reminds us that sometimes our greatest creative breakthroughs happen not when we dull our senses, but when we sharpen them through clarity and presence.

Other useful links from Brett:

  • Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
  • Brett's YouTube channel
  • Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
  • Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
  • Data on SUD in the US (2022) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
  • Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
Speaker 1:

Hey there, welcome to Recovery Conversations. My name is Brett Lovins. This is now a YouTube channel as well as a podcast, so if you're listening to audio, you could go over and watch this on YouTube as well. I'm cranking that up slowly but surely If you're new to my content.

Speaker 1:

Basically, I do a variety of things around addiction or substance use disorder. Main themes are going to be the illness that is addiction or substance use disorder, and I bring in some doctors and some specialists in that regard, a lot with recovery-friendly workplaces. So if you've never heard those three words together, it's a thing. You can Google it and that's the work I do is around trying to help businesses become more aware and support their employees and their families. And then one of the themes, too, that's been run through these episodes is musicians or people in the music industry, which is near and dear to my heart, and I'm excited to bring Chris Haugen. I've been talking to him about doing this for a while and we finally were able to make it work.

Speaker 1:

He's a great musician. We knew each other way back in the days, which we'll talk about. He's a slide player. His Spotify stuff is amazing. At the end of this I'm going to play a whole one of his songs that really caught fire on Spotify. It's lovely music, it's instrumental, so it'll just fade out and then, if you leave it going, if you're driving down the road or want to fast forward to the end and hear a whole song, I'm going to just put that there for you to check out, and he's got a lot of music for you to check out on Spotify and elsewhere. So Chris is a good dude and I'm really stoked to bring you this conversation. So let's roll it. And thanks, chris, for doing this. By the way, too, I'd love to pass the mic to you and have you introduce yourself.

Speaker 2:

My name is Chris Haugen. I am a guitarist and songwriter and producer for the last 30 years or so. I've been sober for three years and am currently just in the process of taking a lot of chaotic energy and streaming it down to one solid, focused beam. That's my sort of how I'm working right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, that's a cool metaphor. So tell me more about what you're focused on then. If it's focused, where are we focusing?

Speaker 2:

The main thing that I've been focusing on in the last year and a half has been, um, developing myself as a recording artist and producer. Um, I've, for years and years I was a touring uh consider myself like a touring guitarist first, and that has kind of switched, and so, um, during that time, I've just developed a, um, a a style of recording and music that, um, is kind of pushing me in a new direction.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, Well, I, I I'll be sure to put links and, uh, I know you a little bit from the social media thing, although I don't spend a lot of time there, Um, but I know that you're you're doing some pretty amazing things on Spotify, Um, so, uh, you know I don't want to describe your music, but would you be willing to do that just for a second? Sure, what you're working on nowadays?

Speaker 2:

And the transformation that is really related to sobriety. It's related to a few factors, but, yeah, for about a decade I was about at 3,000 listeners per month and last month I hit 480,000. No-transcript. A lot of that stuff was kind of in place in random places, but pulling it all together and figuring out you know how to proceed with it is definitely, uh, something that, um, I attribute to getting sober.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, and I and I may say this at the in the intro, cause I usually do a little intro as well you know, uh, we our paths crossed back in the early 90s oh they did, yeah, speedy, on tubs, among other places.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I was in a band called gt noah. You were in a band called jam bay and there were a couple times where we were on on stage and I remember you were playing slide, which was what I was getting interested in as well. That really stood out to me as a, you know, fledgling guitar player. Anyway, and then our paths crossed again here, you know, three years ago, about About three years ago, yeah, yeah, and we started having conversations and my recollection, chris and I'm going to tee you up here and you can certainly correct me is when we first started talking about it, cause you showed up at a meeting that I was in, um, we would bullshit you. Uh, I'm trying to figure out the right word. I would say you were again correct me, but you were kind of, uh, you said I'm sober a few times on this call. Like it seemed to me at that time you were a little bit less interested in that label. Necessarily. You were kind of sneaking up on. What is this thing I'm doing is?

Speaker 2:

that fair. Yeah, that's a very perceptive, subtle thing you picked up on and I recently since I was three years sober I recently did a, did a blast on my social media and and it and it really kind of had a viral response. It was the first time that I went out and announced something and I'm going to explain why I am a little bit hesitant about that. When I meet people and I'm in a social situation, I take pride in saying I don't drink, I don't, I don't, I'm not hesitant about it, I almost have a little bit of like. It makes me, I don't know, I feel powerful in a way when I say that, and so I'm not hesitant about the idea that I don't drink.

Speaker 2:

I am a person who I realized that being confined is a trigger for me, and if I feel like I feel confined by something, I'm actually a little bit like fearful about it. Like it's like for me. When I first got sober, it was like a little bit like a whack-a-mole, like if I, you know, that's going to pop up somewhere else if I push it down, and so, like you know, this idea of being confined was something I was really hesitant to embrace, and the idea of being sober and being in recovery comes along with so many definitions depending on who you talk to, but it can come along with a lot of baggage. And when I got sober, I really thought, like this is my opportunity to liberate my mind from any kind of patterns or anything that's sort of like someone else thought of, and I get to discover my own values and express them. Um, in my life, and I was just, yeah, I was hesitant because you know the idea that I don't.

Speaker 2:

I usually say I don't drink to people because that's just the easiest way. It doesn't call. You know, it doesn't come with any stigmas, it doesn't trigger anything in the, in the person I'm talking to. So, um, yeah, I've been, I've been strapped, I've been kind of walking that line and, like I said, when I did this post, it was the first time I did it and I definitely felt like very, very like raw and vulnerable after I did it, like ooh, I'm not sure that I wanted to kind of let the cat out of the bag on that in that way.

Speaker 2:

So, but you were a person who made a comment, like you probably reached a lot of people and maybe even helped some people, and there's that element of quote unquote recovery that is there and I know for myself, like seeing examples of people that were sober, the way that I wanted to be sober really was a huge map for me. Like, yeah, maybe I don't buy the whole thing of sobriety, but that person has got a style of sobriety that I, like, can totally relate to, and so, you know, offering it up in your own way, I think maybe can be helpful or probably is yeah, well, and we won't know right, maybe in some cases you will know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but I did see your post and I think you know we we've been corresponding for these three years and on and off, and it's like when I saw that I realized I mean from my, from my vantage point, I saw what I thought was a pretty big deal. Yeah, you said I reached out to you because I'm a big believer that well, there's just no uncertainty. You've got 400 plus people liking it and like a whole bunch of comments and some of the people I recognize from the old days.

Speaker 2:

You know like a hundred comments.

Speaker 1:

It's like geez, you don't know who you're going to affect. And you just said there were people that demonstrated a kind of sobriety that that was inspiring to me and that's my story too, yeah Well. So, kudos, man, you know this idea that maybe we give it back, or that we, you know, we I don't know the right way to say it, but anyway, I just thought that was awesome, man.

Speaker 2:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's good and in fact I'd like to read I put it on the side here Not necessarily the whole thing, but I really liked the end of your post. It was sort of sort of a poetic piece. If you don't go ahead, um, I'd love to read it and then just give you a chance to. We either sit here quietly or you can say what you, uh, what you think of it.

Speaker 2:

Sure, at the end of this beautiful post you said A blinking neon light that never turns off, a glass of water balanced on my head, a good surf lesson, a clear mind Full stop of getting sober, like either in a big sense or in a little sense, like even like on a daily level, like sometimes I have these moments where I just feel like I want to shut this neon light off that's just blinking the whole time, and I just feel like the need for some relief. And then I get the idea of like, oh, I'm taking care of something. You know, it's not something that's aggravating me, it's something like this balanced water on my head is like okay, I just need to be aware that I'm taking care of this thing. It's up to me to make sure this thing doesn't fall off and spill.

Speaker 2:

The surf session is something that I do for myself. That really connects me deeply to the idea of spirituality, well-being, nature, health, humanity, god, god, all that stuff. And then a clear mind is the result of that. So it's like a process of, like, you know, making this decision, taking responsibility for it, doing something for yourself that occupies the same space that you thought you were getting from using, and then, you know, just witnessing the results. It's results. It's not a patented program. It may manifest in various sequences, you know, you don't always end up with a clear mind at the end of the thing, but I like it as an idea. You know a model and I felt like a poetic way was probably a good way to say it. Just because it is a poetic process, it's not like a bullet point list that has guarantees with it.

Speaker 1:

Well, you've dropped a couple words into this mix here since we started. I want to grab the latest one. You used the word program just now, yeah, and so I'm like you. I'm resistant to anything that's going to box me in. Or just now, yeah, and so I'm like you. I'm resistant to anything that's going to box me in or define me. Yeah, and that's been maybe problematic, maybe my whole life, maybe still, I don't know. But certain words, once I get to them, to where I feel like they mean something to me and program is one of them for me yeah, I would love to hand that back. Since you use that, what do you think of that word? What was it? What does it mean to you? Program?

Speaker 2:

um a program? Yeah, that's an interesting question because my first initial response was that it's a prescribed program. It's a prescribed list um, but then I had the idea that, like no, a program is is really something that you can interact with. Um, that would be a better way to think of it for me. You know, it's something that's like, it's not a static thing. It's something that I um get to evolve my own um thinking, you know through perhaps is a good way to say it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll pause there. Yeah well, that's awesome, and I'll just add some color to my perspective on it. My program evolves right and my program at its base level is I can't put a drop of booze or drugs back into my system. I can't put a drop of booze or drugs back into my system.

Speaker 2:

I've been around long enough to know that the likelihood of me throwing it all overboard and going back is high. So, yeah, if not inevitable. Yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, obviously thought a lot about why I've been sober and that changes all the time, because I think it is a lot of reasons. It's like a super complex web of like heredity and experiences and the way you were raised and just maybe just basic essence of who you are. I don't know, um, it's a lot of things. Um, well, I think I just lost my train of thought. Um, oh, program.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I think, at its essence, I got sober because I had a sense that I was going to miss my boat, so to speak. I had this deep sense like the boat's going out to sea or whatever and I'm not on it, or, conversely, my boat's too far out at sea and I'm not going to be able to like. I don't always know what my mission is on a life, but I would like to think that I do have a sense that there is something, and just the idea that I would miss that really became like just very dark, a very, really dark thought for me and I just like couldn't, I couldn't abide with it, I just had to be like this. This can't be so in terms of my program. I think that at its core is what my program is. Is that that revelation, the stuff I layer on on top of it?

Speaker 2:

Going to music cares, sometimes going to AA, are stuff that I do just to like re-inform my process, listen to other people, get bits of information that hear inspirations that, um, in a lot of ways, help me not be, help me not be too narrow about what my experience is Like.

Speaker 2:

It's. It's like I have a very specific experience with it. There's a lot of commonalities with other people, but a lot of people have very different experiences, you know. And um so, with other people, but a lot of people have very different experiences, you know. And so it keeps me from becoming too isolated in how I conceptualize what I need to do to be sober, like there's so many experiences to draw from. And so a program yeah, the meetings are really an interesting place for that, especially the music care meetings I mean, between meeting this one that I attend with you and another one have really been the go-tos, the most continuous thing that I've done and where I sort of find the most the dialogue that happens seems to be really deep and respectful, but also open in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So Well, that's, you know, we're musicians, we're, we're automatically wired a little little little different, I mean exactly Like oh, these are my, these are my people, this is great.

Speaker 1:

Um, okay, so so that's, that's great. Uh, you know, I, I, uh, I love that you have a loose idea of what program, and I love that you're willing to say that word too. Like you, I do things right, yeah, however you think about this, I need to protect this thing, right? This meaning this life that I've been able to enjoy without the monkey on my back all the time. And so, you know, I do things and sometimes I think, well, this is a freaking waste of time, I shouldn't have done that, or whatever. Usually, even that moment, I'll go well, hang on just a second. What do you think about that? When you think about the things that you do, either actively or passively, because I think there's a lot to passive as well. I don't know, I'm throwing a bunch of stuff at you, anything there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, maybe clarify the question. I think maybe I got lost in there for a second. Yeah, well, that's not surprising.

Speaker 1:

So this idea that for me my program is both active, meaning I do things, I'm in my lucky socks.

Speaker 1:

I go to places even when I don't feel like it. Necessarily I'm curious about other people, I care about the new person who's trying to find their way in. And then there's the passive part of it too, which is finding how to relax, dig into the reality that I'm in and enjoy it, or accept the things I'm not enjoying that kind of stuff, in order to keep it. So I don't know, that's maybe a little bit spacey I get where you're coming from, I think.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I I established a routine early on and it it just has worked and it just has become part of my regular. I mean, I go to the music care meetings. There's an AA meeting in Rotterdam that I go to, which is you know that's another topic AA but it's at 10.30 PM our time and it just works out well, like it's a good way for me to wrap up my day. It's there every single day and so it's like, no matter what happens, like it's a good way for me to wrap up my day. It's there every single day and so it's like, no matter what happens, that's a that's a good time for me to be like, okay, I can just go sit in on this meeting and listen and and it's kind of fun. You know, people are from all over the world, so it's like sort of an interesting um meeting in that regard too.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, there's sort of the active part is is having having these routines set in and they're just, they're just grounding, they're comforting. Yeah, it's comforting to have a routine. You know, and I think that's one of the things I really have keyed into is the importance of just my little routines. You know, when I travel now I, I, I always travel with my favorite Earl Grey tea. You know, I'm not going to fall apart if I don't have it, but it's nice to, wherever I'm at, just to wake up in the morning, just have that cup of tea and just be like. It just reminds me of like, okay, this is who I am, these are the things that I'm doing, you know, and that I can carry that through the day.

Speaker 2:

The more what you were referring to as passive, which would be like, I guess, stuff that is not specifically coming from a program or from an active, you know, participation in a program, yeah, there's so much of that of taking responsibility for me, of, like, the benefits that I was perceiving and some of them may have been real in certain aspects of, you know, being able to relax, being able to loosen up, being able to, you know, be a little bit more carefree. Or, you know what about the reckless side of you, or like the I use the word reckless, but maybe it's just adventurous Like there's a super adventurous side to me and I think music and touring was a lot of that. And, um, without alcohol I find myself a little bit less likely to get to sign on to like sort of adventurous things. And that's a constant negotiation that I have with myself of what's an acceptable amount of like sort of kite string to let out, so to speak.

Speaker 2:

When I first got sober, it was very, it was little or none, you know. It was like no, we're just doing this. Here's my priorities. I would write them down and just stick to it, that you find you kind of outgrow that in a way, like you know that there's an element of chaos and unknown to life not chaos, but maybe and there's new experiences and you can't control things and you can't only limit your exposure to people, to people that are, like, meet some kind of sober criteria that you're going to come across, people that have different values, that maybe challenge you or annoy you or whatever, and you you know you have to figure those things out.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about um, about music in particular. This, my podcast, has has a, has an element of musicians and that's. You know, that's one of my groups that I like to talk to and, partly because for me, I've used this like a horse race analogy, music and and and intoxication were like a horse race. When I started, the music was way out in front and over time the, the partying, caught up and then sort of passed it to the point where the, where the drinking was fully in the way of making music, and that's a metaphor I'm just going to throw into the middle here. But I'd love to explore, going back a little bit, what the intermingling of alcohol or drugs and music. What do you got, I you know, when I was on tour with Jan Bay, I never saw drugs.

Speaker 2:

You know, when I was on tour with Jan Bae I never saw drugs, ever like hard drugs. I never saw coke like one time in the entire time, so and it had never done it. So and coming from a situation you know a background, where there was pretty heavy alcohol abuse in my family, in my close family, I was very like anti, but yet still there was like big red flags, even though I was. My general posture was like no, I don't ever want to, I don't want to ever let that take me down because I've seen what that's like. So that was the first part.

Speaker 2:

And then, once Jambe broke up, I was kind of like a kind of a free agent kind of guy, like playing a lot of different gigs, and I fell into some gigs where there was a lot of drug use and it was new to me and I sort of associated it with access, like, oh, I needed to meet more musicians, and the musicians I was meeting and in fact some of the more successful or notable ones, there was just a lot of drugs around. And so at first it was like I would go to a gig and there was just too many people who had drugs around me, and then I just I just couldn't, you know, I would be on stage thinking like, oh, that person just walked in, I know that person has drugs, and my mind would just be like preoccupied the whole set of like can't, I can't wait for fucking set break, you know, to like go shake this person down, you know, and and it just got, it got to be like a preoccupation, like I. It wasn't that I felt like, oh, I need drugs to perform or whatever, um, and I sort of knew like that's going to ruin it. Yet if it was around, I couldn't help how like excited I felt about like getting involved with it. So, and yeah, I don't know what else to say about that it just it did.

Speaker 2:

It became a thing that I don't think it eclipsed my like love and creativity or love for creativity, but it just became such a massive distraction that I was managing all the time that there was not really any time to do anything else. I was just, like you know, thinking about like the whole process, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's, let's talk about so. So earlier in the conversation you talked about kind of I don't remember. You said dark time, I can't remember. But I would love to explore the point, or the gradual point, where you realized you know I got to do something about this, or this is getting, you know it's, I'm getting over my skis, or whatever you want to say. Um, I mean, those are my words, is it? Or is it dramatic, like in a moment?

Speaker 2:

no, it wasn't dramatic, but it was. It was. It was almost like it was almost like a guardian angel situation where I would just get these little whispers of like this isn't right, this isn't right, and I kept overriding it and that little voice just became more dramatic and more weird shit started happening. I went out to, I realized that things were getting out of control, and I've had a devoted yoga practice the whole time, which definitely, like was compromised when I was at the sort of deep, you know, phase of drinking especially. So I went out to Green Gulch in Stinson Beach, which is a kind of a Zen monastery sort of place and I'm like I just need to get myself in an environment surrounded by people that have, like, spiritual values and just, I was just desperate to like have an experience. So I went out there and I brought a couple little shots of booze and, you know, drank them and like, just was in my little monastery room to like have an experience it. So I went out there and I brought a couple little shots of booze and, you know, drank them and like, just was in my little monastery room and you know, then I was I was, um, thinking about mill valley, which was about a 20 minute drive away, and in my mind I'm like, oh, the liquor store closes at 11 30 and like it's like 10 30 now.

Speaker 2:

Hmm, I think I'm just going to go, I'm going to go to Mill Valley and get some booze, right, and I go out to my car and I start it and it starts up and the fucking lights won't turn on like out of the blue, and so I'm just sitting in this parking lot in the dark and it's so dark out there, there's no lights, there's no way to, like you know, risk it and drive without lights. And a series of those things were constantly happening where it was just like I was just getting this little signal from wherever of like no, that's not, you're not going to do that, that's not going to happen, and if I overrode it it would definitely explode in my face. So I had a. I definitely had an experience like that. That's just one silly little event example. But you know, I was just like like, why did the light suddenly not work on my car?

Speaker 1:

yeah, that's that's. That's kind of wild, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

yeah, did you have any experiences like that?

Speaker 1:

no, I that, not that I not that I observed I like you, you use, you just use the term little voice, that's I. I had two voices. I called one the little voice, and the other one the bully. Yeah, bully was the override override button. Yeah, totally, and the bully was loud and the little voice. And the other one the bully. Yeah, bully was the override override button. Yeah, totally, and the bully was loud and the little voice was small and uh, but the little voice got time on stage and sometimes in places where it was really effective in terms of me starting to go, and you use the word, I don't remember exactly, but for me it was things are not going well here.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, this is not working. Yeah, you just know it. This is a sequence of events that's starting. That's just going to get weird.

Speaker 1:

So do you remember when you finally said okay, this is the day? If I remember right from way back, you don't have a date per se, or do you? Yeah?

Speaker 2:

It's around tax day, okay. So yeah, it's a little hazy what happened, but I went down to visit my family and was a bit of a mess and they just basically called me out on it and I had to make a decision. It wasn't. There was no force involved on their part, it was. It was a revelation. That was already very clear to me, but I definitely got a prompt and yeah, and that and that was it.

Speaker 1:

So do you? I think again. I I'm piecing your story together from our conversations, but my understanding is is at some point you said you know what I'm going to. I'm going to leave where I am now and I'm going to come up to the Northwest. Is that?

Speaker 2:

something. Yeah, yeah, a variety of a variety of reasons, but I had some. I had some family up here and so I came up when I first got sober just to like take inventory, really like take it, take it, take a space. You, you know it's at the end of the pandemic and my lease had ended, so there was a, there was a variety of things that landed me up here.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, so I took some time, yeah, got some stuff together and yeah, and then you are, you know, like me, somebody who is continuing to be sober. Uh, I like the word recovery. Some people do, some people don't, I do. I used to hate it. Yeah, where are you at with that one?

Speaker 2:

I like the idea of not letting words and this is something I read not letting words hijack your situation. I read one of the articles that I read from somebody that was like, oh, I like that style of sobriety. Was this guy? He was a CEO of some company, but a young guy, and he's just like, yeah, these tequila cocaine parties were just happening all the time. And he's like, when I look at that and that experience versus the experience of calling myself an alcoholic, it's like I'm not going to let using that'm not going to let using that word like hijack me away from, like doing the thing that I know is right for myself, you know. So I try not to invest too much in those terms.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you go to an AA meeting, you have to, you have to say those words, you don't have to say it. Uh, but it's, um, feels very awkward. There's a fair amount of peer pressure that I feel, just, if I don't do that, and that's another topic. But, um, you know, honestly, like what's the big deal? Like, just, I kind of feel like get get over myself on that one a little bit. Yeah, what I've been.

Speaker 1:

I've, unfortunately, I've had to go to battle with many, many words because, like even the a word that you just mentioned, like yeah if I'm listening, brett listening who maybe got a little bit curious. Maybe he knows you, you know and he's interested. Uh, that word would have made me turn off the computer. You know like, and that's, that's, that's problematic and not necessary to to your point right and yeah, it has a lot of issues.

Speaker 2:

Um, I, I read the thing that kind of like one of the things that really redeemed this whole process was the smart recovery manual. I don't know if you've read it, I have. I read it and it was just like so many light bulbs went off for me like, oh, we find labels to be, um, harmful, or at least not helpful. You know there's no reason to label yourself. And you know, on and on and on, and you know it was just this process that I felt like you know, back to this, not that it's active, but it's like it's not. It's it's about going to meetings. But it really gave me like a day-to-day, like checklist of my thinking and how to approach changing the way I was behaving. That really, really resonated with me and I still, I still go back and read it. It just makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, the meetings are hard to find is the only thing.

Speaker 1:

Exactly, yeah, a lot of really good alternatives to AA. But the thing about AA, that's so wonderful and I call it the Starbucks. It's on every corner, at every hour, mostly consistent and and you know, you know, although I don't talk a lot about aa on my, on my podcast, because there is a tradition that kind of says, you know, maybe easy on that, yeah, on the other hand, I'm also aware that it's good for people to be hear some things right, so so I I balance that as best as I can um, I think what you're doing with your business is the antidote to that, because, yeah, you don't want help to feel like a secret society.

Speaker 2:

The first time you go into an AA meeting it's weird, but the people were very nice and welcoming, so I should qualify that. But just the idea of what you're there and the things that you experience. Back to what we were talking about words. There was a Jewish woman at a meeting that I went to in Sausalito and and someone had told her like you don't, you don't have to do all this stuff, and she's like so appreciative of that Cause, she's like I might be dead if I weren't in AA, but if I felt like I had to like recite all these like really Christian based things, it was so contrary to who I am, I wouldn't have gone. And so there's that. There's that thing that happens, where it's such a divisive thing and I don't know. Yeah, we don't need to get on a big, deep dive on on this whole thing, but Well, I, I, you know, just I put a podcast up of my first AA meeting.

Speaker 1:

Somebody can listen to if they want. And there's, there's a moment where I'm out. I'm on my way out the door, chris, because heavy, heavy, what I'm hearing is, you know, religious stuff.

Speaker 2:

That was not jiving with me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I'm on my way out the door when a woman identifies herself as an atheist, right, I was like you know, I don't know, maybe the rest of the room was bummed, but for me it probably. I don't know what happens, but it was a big deal and helped me. So, yeah, I appreciate it when people are willing to share their truth and not necessarily to be combative, but these words can get in the way. Even AA as two letters, most people have an idea what that means right away and it's like so yeah, I'm with you on that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, words can get in the way and I've been in battle with most of them At some point.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's talk about making music a little bit. Okay, so you get sober I'm just using the words for that part. You get sober and you're still an active musician, playing with other musicians. Do you remember feeling a little bit of heightened anxiety Whatever word you want to use about what's it going to be like to go make music without drugs and alcohol? Was that a thing for you?

Speaker 2:

intense performing can be for me and, yeah, definitely leaned in on booze even, all you know, throughout I was definitely like a couple of drinks sort of guy and looking back at some of the videos and stuff, I don't think that that really was an issue. I seem to be able to handle having two beers and like performing. You know, I don't know what it would have been like if I hadn't done that you can't know that, of course but, um, yeah, there, there, there was that Um, but I wouldn't say it was like a huge, huge deal. I think I think once I sort of owned my sobriety I it was. I just was looking, I was energized and looking for ways to improve the areas that I was using alcohol to mitigate.

Speaker 2:

I went and did this drop-in theater comedy sketch thing one day, you know, kind of on a whim, but it was that. It was like you know what would it be like to be on stage without a guitar, like I had this curiosity of like if I can just like learn to get more comfortable on stage and this might be a step towards doing that. It turned out to be, you know, not my path, but that kind of thing where you just you think, oh yeah, there's that. You know that there's that thing I want to improve. So why don't I just figure out a way to improve that and not just, you know, use alcohol to avoid it?

Speaker 1:

um, and these aren't necessarily like big heavy things, it could just be like, yeah, self-consciousness on stage, you know did you experience that, uh, well, I don't, you know my performing days and and, uh, or way before I, you know, I stopped before I got sober, okay, um so, so my days and.

Speaker 1:

But but back then, I mean one of the things that was a hangup for me, when I, you know, in that little voice, all the way back, when that little voice was talking to me, it was like, well, yeah, but how could you possibly play? And I've been around enough musicians to hear a theme where it's like, you know, know, I'm nervous about going to play for the first time, or yeah, or uh, you know, I make my living this way. How am I going to do that? I've heard that lots of times you probably have too and it's like, um, yeah, that's why I was exploring that with you to see, to see if, if there was anything to that for you, and and how did it actually pan out? And how is it panning out now as you perform with other musicians and such?

Speaker 2:

I did a rehearsal with one of my, a person that I collaborate with, the person that I really admire as a musician, and it was videoed and I'd sort of forgotten about it. Then it was playing somewhere in the background and I heard the guitar playing and it's like it sounded like really sharp and like good, and I went like, oh, that's this rehearsal, that's me playing the guitar, and I remember being so. It was right when I was newly sober, like so tight inside and so wound, and it just tipped me off Like that's just my, that's just my perception of what's happening, like my actual physical ability to play is better than it was. So the process for me became like I need to figure out how to just trust the fact that this sounds good, um, even if my internal experience is like not telling me that and uh, and that's a big, that's a big trip right there. That's a big, you know process to get involved with just changing the way you think about yourself.

Speaker 2:

And that's ultimately what booze was. It's just like an instant, like whatever it was, it's like I'm just going to completely change how I'm thinking of myself and the situation right now, in an instant. It's hard to, it's hard to argue with that, as like that's not a bad thing to want to do, necessarily. But you know, you know the rest.

Speaker 1:

Well, so well, so, so in that. So the one thing I think is true for you, chris and you can again correct me so I know you do a lot of recording, uh, solo, and putting stuff up on on spotify and whatnot, and some of the musical things I've heard you put out are just freaking stunning thank you yeah, really, and also a lot of slide, which, of course, is right up my yeah um, but I also know that you still collaborate with other musicians in live settings, which means you're going into settings where alcohol is flowing freely, all true right.

Speaker 1:

You're still doing that.

Speaker 2:

I'm still doing it. The scene that I've kind of tapped into up here is miraculously or maybe it's not a miracle, it's just an energetic draw that you know happened for me is that, uh, not many people in my scene drink. Um, we had a party, a span sonic shiva, that I've been playing with. It's kind of it's a kind of a family style band. It's it's a big group of musicians and anytime maybe six of us are performing, but it it rotates over years. There's been like 30 musicians and so we had a big party for the band members past, present and their significant others, and there was this huge table and there was two bottles of wine on the table and when the party was over they were both like half full and I was just like, are you kidding me? Like yeah, I couldn't believe it and I just felt very thankful that and, in general, this is one of the reasons I've gotten more into recording the music that's related to my yoga world.

Speaker 2:

You know, some of the meditative music I'm doing is that a lot of musicians don't drink and even if they smoke a lot of weed or do psychedelics which is pretty prevalent, or I won't say prevalent, but common in the Northwest booze is out, like people just don't. People don't drink booze and it's just been great for me, I think in the core band bass player, the other guitarist, one of the singers, two of the drummers nobody really drinks. There's never a drink on stage, ever so I've been lucky in that regard, yeah in that regard.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, do you think? Do you think you'd have trouble if you were like, like, let's just say you, I don't know, let's just go, let's take that hypothesis just for fun, right? Okay, sure you go. You go to an all-star jam someplace or whatever, and you get there and somebody that you know is is just absolutely lit up on stage right and his guy's arm or her arm around you and just want to tell you everything and stuff. Yeah, is that something that would be problematic for you at this point? You think?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I would probably be polite long enough to endure it and then just leave. You know, I think I would like to think that I've developed a pretty good radar at this point about situations that I could, you know, avoid those kind of situations before they happen. But of course, um, you can't really. I mean, I, I haven't had it on stage, I haven't had a situation, well, maybe a little bit. One guy came to rehearsal one day, a little bit wasted, but, um, that's kind of another topic, but, uh, it's, it's. It's more from the, from the fans, I have to say, like, because you're up on stage performing and you're sober and you get off stage and someone's been drinking for three hours and you know, they just don't know when to stop. They have a lot to share. They have a lot to share. Thank you, that's so diplomatic, I should use that. Wow, you really have a lot to share, don't you? Can I play your guitar?

Speaker 1:

yeah, all right, um, all right. Well, this is, this is. This is great, and I'm really you know this is gonna sound corny, man, but I'm proud of you for putting that thing up on facebook and oh, thanks, man and for and I'm grateful for you. You know talking on here as well. I I know you're playing some gigs up in Seattle. From time to time there's a lot of Northwesterners here. Do you want to talk about any of the places where you're playing? People come listen to you rock out.

Speaker 2:

I'm playing up at Imagine Fest up in Orcas Island in September. So and then in between now and then I play with a band called the Tea Leaves in the Bay Area and we have some gigs coming up in the East Bay. You can look at my website. It will have all that stuff on there. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and my recordings, of course. I just finished a new song today. So, yeah, it's called Zenith and I've been getting some good action on this Deep Focus playlist on Spotify, so that's another place that you can find my music.

Speaker 1:

And I'll probably put this on the bumper as well, but I think you're going to turn me on to. You've got some music that's available on YouTube for people to use with their own videos, and I'm going to use yeah, I'm going to link you into that YouTube audio library.

Speaker 2:

I have 60 songs up there that are free license, like you literally can use them for anything you want.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, well, I'll definitely do that, chris. It's been cool to reconnect these years and, and now we're we're I don't know we're we're friends in another way. Yeah Well, man, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right on no-transcript.