Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins

Greg Williams - Filmmaker & Producer of the Documentary "The Anonymous People"

• Brett Lovins • Season 3 • Episode 4

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Join us in an enlightening conversation that delves into the power of sharing recovery stories and breaking down stigma. In this episode, Brett Lovins sits down with accomplished filmmaker Greg Williams, who shares his insights on transforming personal narratives into powerful advocacy tools. With a focus on person-first language, Brett and Greg explore how reframing the narrative around addiction can create a more compassionate understanding within society.

Greg emphasizes the importance of community and the hope that comes from openly sharing one’s recovery journey. As they discuss the profound impact of Williams’ documentary "The Anonymous People," listeners will learn how visibility in recovery can inspire others and encourage a supportive atmosphere. The episode serves as a powerful reminder that recovery is not just about personal healing, but also about rewriting the societal conversation around addiction.

By engaging with these pivotal themes, our conversation challenges listeners to move past shame and embrace the beauty of their stories, encouraging collective healing and understanding. Dive into this engaging dialogue and discover how you can contribute to reshaping the narrative of recovery! Remember to subscribe, share, and leave a review to spark more conversations around this important topic.

Greg Williams films (available to rent on many streaming platforms):
The Anonymous People
Generation Found
Tipping the Pain Scale

Trailers:
The Anonymous People
Generation Found
Tipping the Pain Scale

Other useful links from Brett:

  • Sober Curious Consulting - Brett's Recovery Friendly Workplace consulting business.
  • Brett's YouTube channel
  • Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
  • Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce from the Department of Labor.
  • Data on SUD in the US (2022) - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
  • Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
Speaker 1:

Welcome to Addiction and Recovery Conversations with me, brett Lovins, the host of this podcast and YouTube channel. So when I track back through the time that I was a quiet person who had not discovered their voice yet, who lived in the shame and stigma and secrecy of being in long-term recovery and not willing to share with anyone, or very few besides, inside of rooms where the word anonymous is on the door. There are a few things that happened along the way that made a big change for me, and one of them was the movie the Anonymous People. It's a documentary that I've recommended to many, many people. Even the trailer is cool. So if you don't have an hour and some change to watch the documentary which I think you should even the trailer is cool. So to have the filmmaker, greg Williams on my podcast is a really cool thing for me.

Speaker 1:

Greg Williams has put out several very influential documentaries about addiction in our society and the promotion of advocacy for these many times voiceless people. To meet up with Greg and then to be able to interview him like this is just awesome for me, and so I hope you'll enjoy the conversation and put a bunch of links down below too, so you can find his work, which I recommend big time. All right, greg Williams, it's super cool to be here with you. I've found over time that the best way to set up is to give my guest the opportunity to introduce themselves. Up is to give my guest the opportunity to introduce themselves, with the understanding that most people that listen to this and watch this will not know who you are. I'd love to just open that up and let you introduce yourself, if that's cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

Brett Greg Williams, first and foremost, I'm a person in recoveries.

Speaker 2:

For me, that means I haven't used alcohol or other drugs over 20 years and I think the most important part of that story is I didn't always share that part of my story with other people and I went on a journey and learned a meaning and a reason to including that as part of my journey and my story, and now it's become um a hobby, a passion to to help others um um harness their stories uh and harness their power of their recovery stories to transform lives.

Speaker 2:

For what is the leading cause of death in this country and uh is the persistent um cause of uh of so much pain and so much heartache and so many families lives, and so, um, you know, recovery uh can give so much back, and so I I, you know that's that's that's really what I do is I I try to empower others to tell their stories and that supported me an opportunity to make a few films. And, you know, do do some event work and do some other advocacy work and some policy work and, uh, you know, just try to help uh improve the situation for others the best that I can yeah, um, I've heard you and others introduce them, introduce themselves just like that, and I, as I understand it, that comes from faces and voices.

Speaker 1:

Is that where that originates, this idea of I'm in long-term recovery?

Speaker 2:

Um, can you teach me about that, because I know very little and I'd love to know what you know about how it is that you, you introduce yourself and why that is yeah, it's um, um, yeah, it started, uh, back in um early 2000, 2001, um, when a, an organization called faces and voices or coalition, came together, um, and studied the public perception of the word alcoholic or the word addict, uh, and the way that, often the way, the way that I was getting how to introduce myself and my connection to uh, my chronic disease, and I was taught to introduce myself in my first years of my recovery, as I, you know, I'm Greg W, I don't have a last name and I'm an addict, and I wasn't aware that, while that introduction provided purpose in a certain community, in a certain setting, in other settings, on a job interview, uh, with my uh congressional representatives, with, with, uh, um, you know a babysitter or uh, uh, you know a neighbor, um, or my kid's school teacher, those that language, um, they have a perception that I'm still using that, I'm still actively drinking and that's obviously not the way that I would introduce it.

Speaker 2:

And the public perception around those words still persists as derogatory and criminal and all the words that we associate with those, all the words that we associate with with those, and so essentially, um, uh, sort of dehumanizing people, we've allowed, um, the public, uh has allowed discrimination to occur for individuals in recovery or seeking recovery, and so what? What they figured out and understood is person first language helps to um open hearts, open minds, and also helps to see people you know, see, see you as a person, and so, um reframing my recovery narratives, uh, with that language, uh, that I'm a person, um, and and and uh allows for for uh better understanding of where I come from and and my story, and also it's it's just more accurate in terms of other people's perception of of why I'm telling you about my, my journey with addiction.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, uh, this resonates with me so many things in what you just said. I'd love to dig into one of them, so I'm just going to tell on myself. You know, even the word recovery was rough for me to hear. It's like many words and many, many vocabularies in this world that I've waded into. I've gotten real comfortable with it, but I'm always thinking about what it was like for me in order to potentially, you know, make it possible for somebody that needs to hear something to hear it, and so, um, I'm saying that upfront so that the person who's tuned in here that might've snuck into the office to listen to this podcast, that is charged by a word like that um, you know it's a word Um, and what I'd love to do now, if you're cool with it, greg, is to ask you kind of a question what, what, what does the word recovery mean to you? What, what, what does that mean? Um, cause, I think that might help.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's, uh, I think it's, I mean it's. It's meant a lot of different things to me, but I think the most important understanding, you know it's just been personal freedom, the ability to go on a journey, figure out who I am, what I am, what I like, what I don't like, what I can offer the world, uh, what I can offer the world, uh and uh, without being, um, hindered by, by, uh, chemicals and and so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's probably it. I mean, it's, uh, obviously, the, you know, when the student is ready, the teachers appear and willing to be, you know, they're willing to be teachable and open. I think has, um, you know, had tremendous opportunities for me in my life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what I'll just share. You know, for me and it's it's been a changing subject as well this concept of recovery and again telling myself that used to really bother me that somebody would say that, but I'll just share with the audience that's listening. For me it means that I'm figuring out how to, similar to you, how to navigate the world without being jacked up all the time. For a good chunk of my life I was on drugs and alcohol always, and so you take that away.

Speaker 1:

And how does one go to the movies? How does one, you know, go to a Thanksgiving dinner? Um, how does one attend a rock concert? Um, and these are things that have gotten easier and more robust and rewarding over time for me. And one word I want to just pick out that you shared, that that really resonated with me is, I think he said freedom, I think he said the word freedom just now, greg, and boy, I resonate with that one, like the ability to be what I want to be, do what I want to do without. And you said hindrance, which I think is an excellent word of drugs and alcohol, anything you want to take a swing at in that.

Speaker 2:

No, I mean, it's just the opportunity to, um, you know, be unencumbered. You know, and I think you know, it's like this old thing I think I started to me in probably a year or two, uh, on the path or the journey of recovery, to like wake up and, you know, look in the mirror and like the person that was looking back, you know, I think that that's just a real journey of self-esteem. How do you build self-esteem?

Speaker 1:

and all of that. Yeah, you had your first name and your last initial. The words that were used were things like I'm an alcoholic or whatever, and that those are charged words in public. I'm curious how long from when you got sober to when you decided you know what? I'm going to change this up, I'm going to start to join, accelerate a movement of people who are willing to say, hey, I'm in recovery and be proud of it. Do you remember how long that was for you, and was there a certain time when you said I'm going to do this, I'm going to change this up, or was it gradual? Do you remember?

Speaker 2:

Um, well, I never set out to, to do anything but tell other people's stories. So I don't know, you know a lot of people give me way too much uh, you know credit for, for spearheading certain components of, of their own transition. I, I, um, I see myself kind of as a storyteller and a filmmaker and had an opportunity to, to to film, um, you know, the real fire starters in the, in the space, and uh, and so what what happened for me was was I got invited to speak at a legislative, um, uh, breakfast in Hartford is, connecticut, where I live, the Capitol, hartford is Connecticut, where I live, the capital. And I told my story on the dais and I was three or four years into my recovery and the Hartford Current reporter came over to me, which is the large paper in Connecticut, and this reporter says to me can I tell your story, can I write a story about you? And I was like a 20-year-old kid, three years in recovery, a young person in recovery, and can I write a story about you for the paper? And I said, okay, but you can't use my last name. And she looked at me and she looked at the dais and she's like you just testified on closed circuit television in your legislative building. What do you mean? I can't use your last name. And I was confused. I had no idea. Like I'm like you know, like it's like you know, and I didn't, you know, break any traditions or do any of that. But you know, I was just very confused about what my role as a citizen was versus my role as a person in recovery. And so it's not. You know, sitting on a dais in a legislative building was not what I did for my own personal recovery in 12-step rooms and things like that, things like that. And so this reporter writes this great story about me probably still one of the nicer stories written about me and the third line of the story is you know, greg W did not want to disclose his last name.

Speaker 2:

And this mentor I had, donna Aligata, she calls me up and she was the one who had to organize the break. You know, she's like oh, this is a great story. I'm glad you shared your story, but I don't understand the 12 traditions or anonymity, like what. What do I read in that sentence? And and I said well bet, I'm ashamed.

Speaker 2:

And and she said well, is that why you're telling your story in the hartford current. I said. I said no, I mean, recovery is the best thing that ever happened to me. And you know, I said, but I'm going to college, I'm looking to go in the media world. Like I can't be on Google, I can't. You know, I can't do any of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2:

And she said something to me that changed my life. She said you know, if recovery is one of the most important things in your life and has given you what you're most proud about, if there's a door in your life that gets shut as a result of your own recovery and your past, that's a door you never wanted open in your life. It's a door you never wanted to open in your life. Um, and it and it really empowered me to to go on this journey and explore, um, what that was about for me. Why, why was I confused? Why? Why are other people confused about using their last name and using their um?

Speaker 2:

You know citizen, civic responsibility and and, uh, you know I've been paying taxes for uh, since I got into recovery and you know, don't don't totally love where my tax dollars go, uh, and so what do other people who don't really love where their tax dollars go?

Speaker 2:

You know, you're not a billionaire. There's only a couple paths you can take, but one is to tell your story to those who could essentially change the trajectory of your tax dollars. And so I went to this training and met these people who were doing this work, and I left that training, um fired up, and I was like these, these guys you know it was right when, um, a film called how to survive a plague came out around the hiv aids crisis and in new york, um, and it was a great film and uh, uh, I was like these people are on the cusp of of really carrying a similar message, um, and uh, uh, I wanted to help tell their story, and so I, I, um, I started to pursue um, how I, how I could add value to the movement that they were creating.

Speaker 1:

Well, this seems like a kind of a perfect segue into this and the first film that I became aware of. I didn't know who you were, I don't even remember how I became aware of this movie, greg, but I'm I think I'm seven years sober when I saw the Anonymous People, and you know the story that you just recounted about. You know why am I using? You know why isn't the last name okay? You know, these things were curious to me and kind of troubling simultaneously. And then I saw the Anonymous People and the title is awesome as well, and I'm going to again tell you a short bit of my story.

Speaker 1:

When I saw that movie, greg, um, you know, I'd been working in corporate America a while and I navigated all the events and everything else quietly. You know, nobody knew. Um, I always had a reason why I couldn't do this or that, and um, and then I saw that movie and I'm sure you've heard this a hundred times, so pardon me while I tell you my, my experience with it. It was, you know, the the metaphor I like to use I saw Rocky three, which was as a as a young kid. And when, when me and Brent came out of that movie, we're in the parking lot and we're, you know, shadowboxing each other inspired by that movie. It's a long time from that movie to when I started getting noisy myself, but in some ways you, my friend, in that movie, at least in one individual's case, you succeeded in what you set out, what you just shared a moment ago about participating in a movement and a change through at least one person, that sharing that with you right now. So I'd love to talk a little bit about the anonymous people with you, if you're, if you're right.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so at some point you decide I'm going to build this movie here, I'm going to start working on this movie, this, this documentary film, and you had to know some things going in. But you probably didn't know some things going in as well, and I'm curious how the evolution of that first off, did you know? Did you already have a storyboard all set up or did you go in sort of waiting your way into the, some of the historical film around the, the, the movement, and the comparisons to the, the, the HIV movement, I mean these things. How did, how did? Was it a? Was it a process of discovery as you made the, the film, or was it like I know what I'm going to say and we're going to, we're going to put this together.

Speaker 2:

I'm super curious about that yeah, I, it's a great question.

Speaker 2:

I um, no, I mean, you know, I'm I'm a fairly traditional documentary uh person who believes that the story of most documentaries are created in post. Um, and and to just go out, I mean, I set out to make a current event still about these people and what they were doing. Um, and it wasn't until I sat down with people like William White and Station Murphy and Tom Hill and these individuals who had a depth of knowledge of the history of the advocacy movement, that I became interested in history. I mean, I didn't know who Marty Mann was when I set out to make the Anonymous People, and it was only through the journey of making the film that I was educated about our collective history of advocacy.

Speaker 2:

And now in my life today, she's probably one of the most important facets of my life today. Um, as I continue this journey of of just fascination with um, how much of our uh history is important to us today? So, yeah, no, it was. It was totally a discovery process and and the idea of, of layering the context and the history and the you know components to set the foundation for um, the movement that you know was underfoot at that time, um, and is still underfoot.

Speaker 1:

Um is uh, you know, came from the individuals I was speaking with and interviewing well, it was super effective for for me and I know others, and so if somebody is going to make it this far in the film or this, excuse me in this conversation right now I happen to know it's on Amazon to rent and as is some of your other work Tipping the Pane Scale, which we may or may not get to, but even your trailer for that film is is impactful, and I've shared both, uh, a lot of times, greg, so, um, so you go through this discovery process, you, you, you know you find your way to these, what well, let let me do it this way. I would love to hear what do you think the overall theme of the anonymous people is, because I I've got a few, but I'm super curious. If you were to have to tell somebody, well, what's, what's the theme of this documentary, what would you say to that?

Speaker 2:

I. I mean, ultimately it's, it's about reimagining a different, a different approach. You know I think so many of us know about the problems, the devastation, the pain the addiction causes. People just stop it. They gotta hit their own bottom, they gotta change it. We'll never stop the fentanyl coming in the country. We'll never lower the demand, like all of this stuff is. People are just kind of, you know, ambivalent uh, oh, the government will fix it, or this, yeah and uh. You know, nobody wades into the complexity of what, the what, the vision, or the hope or the possibility. So what does a different approach look like?

Speaker 1:

and and so I really believe that was the intention the theme was to lay out a vision for possibilities the film is is this kind of robust um pride for being in recovery, and then it's okay to say my whole last name and it's okay to you know, be interviewed or whatever else it is. As a matter of fact and for for whatever reason, subtly or overtly that was that was elusive to me, um, elusive to me, um. Here you have all of these folks that are spelling out that this isn't brand new or anything and that it's been going on a while and uh, and that theme really rocked me, uh, and I know it has others.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think that that I mean if you go into the history of the 12-step movement, and certainly in Alcoholics Anonymous, I mean the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s. I mean they were out front and going into hospitals, going in to do this work. Even in the 70s you know lots of articles marty man was flying around the country. Edward r moreau called her one of the you know 10 greatest living americans in 1955, like this was, this was celebrated. Um, I mean it, it's, you know, certainly allowed betty ford to do what she did, and, and you know this was, this was, um, there was a culture. I mean, this is 1976, dick Van Dyke and Gary Moore and Don Newcomb and Mercedes McCambridge standing up talking about the recovery that changed for people's understanding of what, uh, anonymity was, is and was, you know, supposed to be. And and, um, you know there's there's kind of two sides of it. One side is, um, as a member of a 12 step group, um, no individual speaks on behalf of that group. Um, you know that's kind of straightforward, uh, at the level of press, radio and films, I I still, to this day don't talk about my personal affiliation with any, any group. Um, I don't speak on behalf of them. Like that's kind of black and white, with the 11th tradition there and all of that kind of stuff, and so I think people get that it's the spiritual component of, of of the why, and I think that's the the piece that a lot of people get hung up on. Um, but you know, that's the debate that we get into, which is, is it, are people really uh, you know what, if, what, if I go public and then I, you know um, have a reoccurrence of use and that's, you know, it's like um, you know, at that time when this film came out, I'd say, well, you know, lindsey lohan's already out there on your behalf, so so I mean, america already knows, you know, recovery doesn't work right like it's. It's like the idea that that you know um, you would add to that narrative I.

Speaker 2:

I think that the piece that that people shy behind and they don't really unpack is the shame. It is the cultural personal fame. People have a lot of shame. Society has a lot of shame around. What happens to people who are addicted and we don't talk about shame and people make makes people uncomfortable to talk about the shame.

Speaker 2:

But when you put it in cultural context, like, yeah, there's a reason I was ashamed of my recovery, because I grew up in the 80s and the 90s when we incarcerated and, and and and public enemy number one was was every you know drug dealer. And that was me, and and you know, as a, as a white man of privilege, like, I even felt that kind of stuff, you know, knowing that those um things didn't impact me as as overtly as so many other um populations, and and so the shame is not the shame that people in recovery who entered recovery in the eighties, nineties, two thousands, the shame that they felt um is not an accident, it was a cultural creation, uh, you know, based on how we re-reacted to, to use in this country, which you know spilled over to people who used alcohol, which in turn changed the cultural understanding of alcoholics anonymous and anaconic, synonymous and how people you know, oh, this is a spiritual I mean the spiritual choice to remain anonymous. Well, you know, that's fine, but at the same time, you know, I have a responsibility to have integrity and be part of my community and give back, and I'm taught that I need to give back. And so there's all these conflictual messages, which is, you know, here's the issue that I care about most in my life politically, socially, culturally, interpersonally. And yet you're telling me, because of the shame or this misinterpretation of what anonymity is, I should be quiet about the thing that I care most about and and hide behind that and, and I think that's the, the unpacking that we try to do a little bit in in the anonymous people and really dig into, to that um, duality and just personally it's you know, um, I mean I, for my first five, seven years of my recovery, I didn't tell anybody, you know.

Speaker 2:

Um, I mean I, for my first five, seven years of my recovery, I didn't tell anybody, you know.

Speaker 2:

And and so it's like here I am active addiction 16, 17, and I had the the face for my parents, teachers, cops, you know.

Speaker 2:

And then I had the drug dealer, you know, at the party, you know all you know dry, all of that right, and I had two distinct personalities and I get into recovery and now all of a sudden I have two distinct personalities.

Speaker 2:

I have the student in college and the kid who's training at the media company and all of that, and yet then I go hang out with people in recovery and I'm completely vulnerable. I have to keep those two lives separate and it wasn't until I started to understand these things, that I was able to actually unite my own identity into a single human who could choose to share whatever parts of himself he wants to share without conflicting or getting in the way of anybody else's journey to recovery, without conflicting or getting in the way of anybody else's journey to recovery and understanding the reason for sharing my story is not about fame or personal gain, but yet this injustice and this underlying belief that part of what held me back and what holds other people back is they don't see examples of people who've transformed in their life. And if you never see examples or you are not witness of the power of recovery, then all you see is what's continuing to enter your newsfeed about the death, disruption and pain of this illness.

Speaker 1:

He uses the word hope just now. So I'd like to pause on that word for just a second, because that's a thread that runs through a lot of work in the recovery field, I think, and certainly through the filmmaking that I've seen you produce and it's funny, in my home group meeting last night that was the word we batted around is this word hope. And what I heard you just now say is this framing of if you don't have examples to look at of people in recovery, it makes it tricky. You know, as I was sharing last night, we, we in Washington state, the Washington recovery Alliance actually, lauren's involved with the Washington recovery Alliance and she was in your movie or your documentary, the the tipping, tipping the pain scale, and I'm I'm an advisor for that group for recovery friendly workplaces.

Speaker 1:

They did a Mariners game. Uh, recovery day and you know I'm sitting there in the stands with my sister, you know, and I see and I'm wearing my green shirt says recovery day at the Mariners and I look around me and I see hundreds of people wearing this green shirt and we're up in the corner and I thought about myself looking up there and seeing that, um, and I shared this at the meeting I probably would have looked to my friend on the left or right that was as interested in the alcohol as I was, and I probably would have bad mouth them. I probably would have said, you know, overtly, you know, look at those do-gooders. Blah, blah, blah. But there would have been a part of me, a small voice, that was aware of this condition and was getting, was uncomfortable with how the trajectory was going. That would have said, huh, well, that's interesting.

Speaker 1:

There's three or 400 people up in the stands at a Mariners game, a major league baseball game, that are wearing green shirts and that are having fun. And that's an example to what I think you just shared, that wow. And it also is an example of the changing landscape of this movement. I think that it's because I think we're entering more and more of this normalization of this, which I'm thrilled about, um so, so I'd love to anything around that you won't. I mean it's it's just a different story that supports what you just shared, but but it's really important one like the, to see people that are doing this, doing this recovery thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and even if the individual is suffering themselves, I think it's most important for families. I'm not sitting here without my family intervening in my trajectory. So many others have families and loved ones who've lost hope or don't know about, you know, recovery or or the example. So I think it's so important um not just to to be an example as a community of of here, when, when you know you're ready or the opportunity, but but that um, the uh that the families see that people get better. And the first responders you know I mean my wife is an ER nurse we're brutal, we're brutal to, you know, first responders and professionals, and they're on the front lines of addiction every day and for them to see that something they do, you know, seven times a day with individuals um sufferings. You know an intervention that they make or or a call for help or or a system navigation thing. Could, could you know somebody, could you know that person could end up in the stands with a green shirt next year because they showed that person a little love, a little energy, and I and I think that's the most important part and this is the, the missing gap with, like, I think, so many people in the 12-step movement, sit in the rooms and and stay uh silent. They forget how they got to that room.

Speaker 2:

You don't just drive by a church and see a door and walk through the door. That's not how we get there. And it's a telephone game. It is a system, an EMT, it's a police officer, it's a judge, it's an emergency department. It's a police officer, it's a judge, it's an emergency department. It's a healthcare worker. It's a treatment center. It is a mother, a spouse, a child, a father. I mean, that is would do anything for anybody who who walk through that door, but why wouldn't we do anything for anybody who who doesn't even know that door exists?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a. It flummoxed me a bit. It flummoxed me a bit. I knew nothing about all of the things in the world around this, because my world in recovery was, you know, certain days a week at certain hours, to these doors you just referred to, and it hasn't been until the last few years that I've learned about things like SAMHSA or Washington Recovery Alliance, which I'm a big fan of here in the state. You know. They've been around 10 years.

Speaker 1:

I've been here the whole time in this state and I know nothing about it, and as I've gotten more and more knowledgeable about these organizations and the things they're doing, it's like well, this has been going on for a while and there's a lot of people, heroes, that are doing some incredible work, and yet if I ask my buddy or my friends you know having breakfast, do you know about such and such?

Speaker 1:

Of course they don't. I didn't, and so I think that that this conversation that we're having in the this, this is a. This is a time in history, I hope, where we return to some of that stuff that you pointed out so beautifully in the anonymous people, return to that and maybe return to some of that stuff that you pointed out so beautifully in the anonymous people return to that and maybe set aside some of that. I guess shame you use the word shame right, it's as good as any. Uh, and just to have people you know wear the green shirt, be stoked to be up there the next year. And it's like I'm that guy that was down there bad-mouthing this and now I'm up here in the stands with my green shirt and, man, if there's not hope in that, I don't know, and I think the other and and yeah, there is no.

Speaker 2:

I mean, people get offended when we talk about shame. I'm not ashamed, you know, and I'm not necessarily saying individuals in recovery are shamed in themselves. It's, it's the internalized shame that the community has for this issue that intersects with people's private shame or their private self-esteem around. You know, they know the community is ashamed of people with addiction. So therefore they internalize some of that community shame and even if they individually have pride about their own recovery, it's, um, it takes courage to to walk into that community shame and I think the uh, uh, you know this, this notion of of being being who you are and and and and sharing your story, I mean that's, uh, doing it with community helps, right, like doing it with 300, 400 other people helps, and so people don't have to stand on their own island and, uh, combat that, but they can, because you'll march down the street or you'll stand up in the seventh inning and everybody in the stadium claps for you.

Speaker 2:

I mean, when people are celebrating, this is the duality right, like we have, people have, um, uh, you know they don't love people with addiction or active addiction and they don't like the behaviors associated with people with active addiction, but we, culturally, will celebrate people in recovery and so when, when you stand up with green shirts and in in, when you stand up with green shirts and and and Safeco park, you know it's um, everybody claps right and it's just like somebody. You know it was all time Alzheimer's day or, uh, you know, breast cancer awareness day, you know it's. We can all celebrate survivors and I think embracing that survivor identity is more important than ever now. And I look at the death and destruction around me with this issue and look at me a lot. There's not a day that goes by that I don't acknowledge that fact.

Speaker 1:

Well, one of the other signposts in my journey to becoming somebody who's willing to recover out loud I love that, I love that collection of words, you know is some trainings I took around from Brene Brown's Dare to Lead work, and her whole premise of that book is, you know, around this idea of shame and courage. And you know, sounds like like you, I spent a lot of years being quiet and now I'm noisy and most of the time it feels pretty dang good, Right, Uh, especially when, you know, not not for necessarily for the applause, because really, at the end of the day, Greg, this is a very personal thing as well. If I decide to go back out, you know that'll be. I will hopefully built enough systems in place to slow me down to not do that, but at the end of the day, if I did, you know I nobody could stop me.

Speaker 1:

And so the more awareness that people have around this and bolster, the more likely that those mechanisms are in place so that it's not something that is mysterious, so that it's not something that you know, requires people to, I don't know, judge from a distance without considering well, somebody's in recovery here, somebody's ill here, how do we connect the two and how do we potentially get people aware of these things? And I, and I think some of the work that you've done and tipping the pain scale as well, oh my God, what a, what a film dude. I mean some of the stories you share in there I think of Roz as one of them how you humanize, like people that are are needing help. I, I'd love for you to take a spin at that one.

Speaker 2:

If, if, you're, if you're willing this, this humanization of people, of people. When it comes to this affliction, yeah, I mean, I've been blessed to work with an incredibly talented editor, director, storyteller, jeff Riley, who's, I think, is one of the best feature film documentary editors, filmmakers in the country. He, you know he's, he's got an ability to create that empathy and, you know, find ways to, you know, make people feel things. You know, if you ever laughed or cried or felt something at any of these films, it's, it's really Jeff Riley and less Greg Williams, um and so. So the truth of your your answer is is, uh, you know, finding the right people, finding the right subjects. The point, uh, the camera at is is certainly something that that I have a knack for, but in terms of the creation of the art and the creation of the tapestry, especially in Tipping the Pane Scale, really it's Jeff Riley and his talents coming out in tremendous ways.

Speaker 2:

And so these films, I get called as the filmmaker or the producer or what have you, but it takes a village.

Speaker 2:

And these films that you know, I get called as the filmmaker or the producer or what have you, but, um, it takes a village and these films are, uh, really put together by lots of talented um, uh, artistry and and so I just I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the fact that it, um, the humanization is, is a multi, is a team effort, and and it's primarily just how do you approach the story.

Speaker 2:

And I think oftentimes we try to sensationalize or we try to approach stories from a specific point of view. But the thingsalsh was doing in Boston and Josh De La Rosa, the officer, and Lauren Davis in Washington State is painting that tapestry together to kind of show people you don't um need to have, you don't need to be darren waller and uh be able to to break the raiders record. You can, you can affect change in different layers of society, and I think that's kind of the overarching message, and and story of tipping the pain scale is like this is a multi-layered effort and it's going to take a lot to solve this, but if people start engaging at the levels of society that they feel like they can't, we can affect a lot of change, community by community. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's well said. I love tipping the pain scale. You mentioned an NFL player who's in it, so those and you mentioned the, the officer who cuts hair, um, for people you know, and his police officer, duds, I mean, these are, these are just remarkable. These, they're sensational stories. Uh, greg, and and yeah, you, you do.

Speaker 1:

You and jeff have a knack for making people feel things, including me and my wife, who's sitting next to me and crying, who had a front row seat for my acceleration into oblivion and then the return to humanity. It's a big that you found and have highlighted in Tipping the Pane Scale are just, are just fabulous and I can't recommend it enough to for those that are are interested and they're, they're stitched together in such a way, to your point, story wise, that they're actually really quite fun to listen to as opposed to, I don't know, some of the speaker things that you see, some the you know webinars that are just all meaningful stuff, but there's something about that storytelling with the, the b-roll and all that stuff. It's just, it's just sweet, man, you've got a knack for it yeah well jeff's just won a couple emmys.

Speaker 2:

He deserves a couple emmys for some of the work we've done together. But uh, you know that's uh whoops. Uh, he, he is. He is a talented human.

Speaker 1:

Well, we're approaching the top here. So I just love to to just kind of aim for the for the ending here, the landing, if you will. Um, I just you know publicly here on this, just to say how grateful I am for the work you've done has affected me personally, um, and I'd love to give you the opportunity to share anything that you'd like to as we close out this episode together.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, thanks for doing this work and really appreciate it and appreciate. Sharing these stories is hard work. Distributing and getting these films out there is far harder than making the films, which is saying a lot. It is not easy these days and so it is all word of mouth and I encourage others to share these films with others and, as you said, they're all pretty accessible now Small rental fees or whatever on the different Apple Amazon you can. You can kind of rent them at the, get them. I think even some of them are on Tubi for free, and and so you can find them with ads or whatever you can.

Speaker 2:

You can certainly find the films if, if you look for them, um and uh appreciate that that you know just continuing to share that, and you know we made anonymous people, uh, we premiered it 12 years ago now and and uh, I'm just thrilled that I'm sitting here talking to you, um and and that film's still having some impact in people's lives. I'm it's, it's, it's been a been beyond my wildest dreams the idea that that film would have some sort of lasting impact in people's lives. So thank you for sharing that. We don't often get to hear firsthand the impact that stories we tell have in other people's lives. So appreciate you and appreciate you sharing that. Hope you enjoyed the conversation and so so appreciate you and um appreciate you sharing that.

Speaker 1:

Hope you enjoyed the conversation. Thank you, greg. Uh, please, to anybody listening, please share, subscribe. All that normal stuff. Again, as a reminder, greg's uh content is stellar when it comes to education and story blending. I'll, I'll, I'll name them off uh, the anonymous people, um, and then Generation Found, which is about young people and the addiction crisis, as well as the most recent one, which is Tipping the Pain Scale, which is absolutely fabulous. All of them highly recommend, so check them out.