Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
The kind of conversations I would have wanted to hear when I was finding my way to sobriety. Conversations that can help remove shame and stigma and move people toward finding help. Substance Use Disorder (addiction) is treatable.
Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
Kyle Zimmer - Health & Safety Director - International Union of Operating Engineers Local 478 on Recovery Friendly Workplaces
Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Kyle Zimmer, the Health and Safety Director for the International Union of Operating Engineers, Local 478. Kyle’s journey into peer recovery work is nothing short of extraordinary, beginning with the tragic power plant explosion in Middletown, Connecticut in 2010. Drawing from his extensive background in fire service and construction safety, Kyle shares the critical lessons learned and parallels between these fields, especially when it comes to addressing stress and mental health in stoic work environments.
Discover how breaking down stigmas around addiction and recovery can transform lives and workplaces. Kyle highlights the groundbreaking efforts of figures like Greg Williams, and organizations such as Facing Addiction, demonstrating how high-level advocacy and peer support can shift public perception and workplace policies. The conversation underscores the urgent need for more peer workers to effectively address addiction, further illuminated by examples of impactful events and meetings with influential leaders.
Finally, we delve into the integration of recovery-friendly practices within workplaces and the broader issue of comprehensive wellness programs. Learn about Jerry, a retired EAP turned licensed drug and alcohol counselor, whose personalized intervention services have revolutionized support for union members. From addressing worker fatigue to advocating for naloxone distribution, Kyle emphasizes the importance of creating a worker-friendly environment that prioritizes overall health and productivity. This episode is a powerful testament to the positive changes that can arise from dedicated advocacy and compassionate support systems.
- Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
- Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce. From the Office of National Drug Control Policy, the Domestic Policy Council, and 12 federal departments and independent agencies.
- Latest (2022) Data on SUD in the US - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
- Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
- Brett's website: brettlovins.com
Hello there and welcome to my podcast. My name is Brett Lovins and today I'm going to talk to Kyle Zimmer. He's the Health and Safety Director for the International Union of Operating Engineers, local 478. According to their website, they have a little more than 4,000 members. He's been involved with recovery-friendly workplace issues for many years. In particular, it sounds like he's really invested in peer recovery work. We cover a lot of topics. He's somebody that I like right away.
Speaker 1:I met him in Maryland at the SAMHSA Recovery Friendly Workplace conference that I went to a month or so ago and I asked him if he would be willing to be on my podcast after we had lunch together one day and he said yes. So I think it's a great conversation and I hope you enjoy it. Thanks, kyle, for doing this. Here we go, all right. Well, welcome to the podcast and my new friend Kyle here. We met over in Maryland at a health summit at SAMHSA, which I really enjoyed your speech at the front of the auditorium there, with all of us recovery-friendly work folks, sports folks sitting there listening, and I ran into you by an elevator and talked you into being on my podcast, and here we are.
Speaker 2:Strong-armed me and being in a podcast. Come on, brad, I'm glad to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, let's start. I'd love to just open it up and let you kind of introduce yourself to my listening audience, and we'll just kind of go from there.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, my name is Kyle Zimmer and currently I am the Health and Safety Director and Member Assistance Program Director of Local 478, the International Union of Operating Engineers. The International Union of Operating Engineers.
Speaker 2:We started our members assistance program back in 2010 after a workplace tragedy a very big power plant explosion on a new power plant that they were building in Middletown, connecticut, and six trade workers lost their life. I responded in two capacities and this is important for you to understand how we got to where we're at today. I have a background since I was 14 years old in the fire service here in South Windsor, connecticut. I started as a cadet and still, all these years later, I'm still involved as a commissioner, but for a number of years I was also involved with the urban search and rescue team of Connecticut Task Force One, and so we responded that day in two capacities, and when I got up there, I looked at one of our stewards and he was as white as a ghost and he just kept saying it's only a movie. It's just like a movie. It's only a movie.
Speaker 2:And you know, obviously suffering from critical incident stress, and you know I kind of grew up in that world. You know, when I was 14, in the 70s, there was no such thing as critical incident stress. There was no such thing as critical incident stress debriefings what you saw, you saw and you had to live with it. And you know you asked me a little bit about my personal journey, brett. You know, and I had to live with a lot Growing up removing people from all kinds of tragic and traumatic situations. Traumatic situations you know one of my best friends I pulled up on a car crash one day and she was in it and she was dead and got hit by a drunk driver and you know that stuck with me for forever and never really processed it. So you know, did I drink a lot in the fire service? Yeah, I did. You know that was part of the culture you know, we'll get into culture change and everything else.
Speaker 2:But you know it did lead to some testy times in my relationship with my wife and home life and things along that line. You know, as I mentioned to you, there wasn't a lot of treatment centers back then but you know you kind of grew out of it or you didn't. And unfortunately I've lost a lot of friends that didn't grow out of it and didn't get the treatment or didn't understand what was going on with them. But getting back to how we started our program, you know that day was the start of it. You know, being a union, we watch out for brothers and sisters, obviously. And the business manager at that time said you know we got problems, what are we going to do? And I said we're going to call in a debriefing team. And I did. I called in a Connecticut State debrief team for critical incident stress, ptsd issues and the members responded you know we're a 3,200-member union of the International Union of Operating Engineers, heavy equipment operators, and the parallel I was finding between fire service and construction workers was incredible. You know, tough guys, stoic people, keeps everything inside and you know I looked at that and I go, huh, maybe I found a real good home here at 478. And I did go. Huh, maybe I found a real good home here at 478. And I did.
Speaker 2:And there was a lot of parallels between the fire service and the construction world. So that day, you know, right after we did a critical instance stress debrief and the guys responded they liked it and all of a sudden I became the go-to guy for workplace issues and you got to remember my background in construction safety started in 1979. So I've been around a long time and I saw a lot of cultural changes in both the fire service and both the construction industry and, you know, again, a lot of different parallels. And once that happened and guys started trusting in me and believing in me, you know, all of a sudden I was thrown and thrusted into, you know, dealing with failed drug tests, family issues, substance abuse issues, a suicide ideology and mental health issues, and that was in 2010.
Speaker 2:So we were a little ahead of the curve in starting peer programs. I mean, they were around. They've always been around since Bill W formed AA. You know that's what AA was a peer program. You know, brothers and sisters helping brothers and sisters. So we started our program and it grew and you know, we got into the whole EAP Employee Assistance Program model and we were finding the utilization wasn't there. So we fired our formal EAP and we brought it in-house and for the last you know, 14 plus years we've been thriving on our Members Assistance Program.
Speaker 2:So that's how it all started and you know everybody says how do you build a peer program? And realistically it's, the roots of the program are very easy. You know you got to be caring, listener and recommend, or recognize, recommend and recognize, react and recommend. You know, if you see somebody on a job site struggling or wherever you may be, you ask that question hey, are you OK? And then you take it from there and you try to help people where they're at.
Speaker 1:So 2010 to 2014 or 2010 to 2024. So were you sober that whole time? I mean, had you already gotten sober at that point?
Speaker 2:I was still dabbling a little bit in 2010. I'd grown up a lot in the 80s and 90s. You know, being a guy in that world tough guy, you drank a lot. You know, being a guy in that world tough guy, you drank a lot. You know, and that's what we did. And then you know just a realization of what I was doing. And you know, here I am all of a sudden trying to help people but I felt like I was a little bit of a hypocrite and you know, it ended and it changed my life. I mean, really changed my life, really changed my life, and the clarity that you get. And you know, just living a good, sober life is very rewarding and then, put on top of that, helping other people, it's just great.
Speaker 2:It was a great combination, and you know it had changed some of my friends, which wasn't a big deal, and then, you know, changed my lifestyle.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I probably lost about 80 pounds over the course of the last 10 years at least, and still work out and whatever, you know, and the healthy lifestyle is the way to go and you know, I look today at the people that I help with substance use disorders and the people that I help with substance use disorders and the help that is there for them is incredible. You know, like I said back then, we buried a lot. You know, I wasn't a good employee when I did work for somebody. I bounced back and forth from owning my own businesses to, you know, working for people and you know, always was successful and always good. But you know, better, that's it. It makes you a better person. And now, as I end my career getting to retirement from the union and starting another journey in a few weeks, still in this space, but you know, I get to really enjoy the family that I really love, you know, and not worried about anything.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's where I'm at. Well, let's, I'd like. I'd like to dig into a couple things. So you, you've got a, you've got a populace of people that you've been serving this time and you've, you've you've alluded to them. I think you were tough guys, you keep things in. So it's a population, and for somebody that would be potentially listening to this podcast right, that could have been me, like I might have snuck in to listen to this podcast I wouldn't have let anybody know that, right, right? And so you also said you know, meet people where they are, meet people where they are, say a bit more about what it's like to you know to break through, or just say a little bit more about what it means to meet people where they are, particularly with people that are more stoic, or that. I don't need help, I got this. That kind of thing, anything there that's interesting to you to chat about.
Speaker 2:When we first started this journey and you had an impaired worker on the job site or whatever, it was very tough because the stigma was still around recovery and getting help. You know, I remember going to companies talking about, you know, setting up a member's assistance program or a workplace peer program, and they threw me out. You know we don't have that problem here. Well, you do. You know, and one of the big things that I remember working in the construction industry is that if somebody came to work impaired, banged up from the night before, whatever, there was a, you know, protection factor in there. They hide you. You know they hide you and you know it wasn't a good scenario between the drinking and drugging on construction sites. So meeting people where they are really starts with breaking down the barriers of getting help, because you need to have that trust and ability to get the pathways going where they can get help. You know, and I'll never forget, a couple of years ago, during COVID, I was watching a football game and Jim Irsay came on, the owner of the Baltimore Colts, who's had a struggle. He was talking about mental health on a Sunday afternoon, right, just saying hey, it's okay to get help and this is what we're doing. And you know, here we are watching an NFL game. When I was a kid it was Marlboro commercials and you know beer commercials. And now here's a guy talking about mental health. That broke down the stigma like you wouldn't believe it started to in our industry. Because if it's okay for them to say they're not okay, maybe I can look for help.
Speaker 2:The other thing is is once you help somebody I always say this to a worker when I help somebody and they're doing well in recovering, they come out of whether it's inpatient, outpatient, out of care, what kind of treatment you go to, but they're stable, they're thinking clear. I always say to them somewhere, some way, somehow, someday somebody's going to come up to you and just ask this question How'd you do it? How did you do it? And that's when you become a peer, that's when you put that hat on and you recognized it. You reacted and now you start to say, hey, if I did it, you can do it. You know, find out what the issues are and start them on the pathway to recovery.
Speaker 2:That's the true definition of a grassroots program. And you know it's worked. It's worked. I think it makes the person doing that. I know for me. It's made me a better person, helping people and in seeing them grow and seeing them enjoy things that they haven't enjoyed for a long time, and seeing them on a job site, seeing them in a meeting, seeing them in a store and say, hey brother, how are you? And they give you a hug and they say thanks, man. And I always look at them and I said thank you, thank you for doing what you did. I'm proud of you. You know and it was funny I just wrote a friend of mine who was one of the first gentlemen I worked with, who was one of the first gentlemen I worked with in 2014.
Speaker 2:He was in a bad way and he really embraced recovery and is doing well. He's on a job site now and he just posted a text this morning about his recovery and you know I just texted him back and said so, proud of you, man, love you brother. You know that's what it's about building relationships and you know I can't be everybody's best friend, but, boy, I got a lot of them.
Speaker 1:You know, and I enjoy it. Well, I'm going to take a stab at something you said a minute ago. So I'm going to propose this idea to you and see what you see, what you think. So you know, and in in 12 step work, there's this 12th step, which is basically the last step that says hey, you know, go help people. I don't know about you, but I could. I don't need that step there, I can't help it. Right, and I'll also say this and let you take a swing at a little bit. Here is if and when.
Speaker 1:That scenario you just painted where you got the, the guy who's get gets that question, who's put a little bit. Here is if and when. That scenario you just painted where you got the, the guy who's get gets that question. He's put a little time under his belt, who's, like you know, enjoying a sober life, and somebody comes up to him and says, hey, how'd you do it? Or can I talk to you? I'm going to propose to you that that person that opened their mouth and said that to their ear, that is a massive moment. So when I mean like that's a window of opportunity that may be so freaking fleeting, because I don't know about you. But I dug a moat and a chain link fence and then I had barbed wire and everything was lit up with electricity to protect anybody from touching the precious the you know, using Gollum terms there, yeah, yeah. And so if somebody were to say that it means that they've cut through some things to get to that moment, and how profound that moment can be Over to you.
Speaker 2:So when somebody says that there are a few reasons why they say it, number one, they recognize the issue that they're going through. Okay, there isn't a man or woman that I've worked with with substance use disorder that, once the light bulb goes on, hasn't said to me. I wish I had done this earlier. Never, marcel, who actually I'll talk about Jerry in a little bit remind me. But he said to me one day and I know this is in the clinical workbook First of all, I'm not a clinical guy, I'm a pure man. I'll get you there, you close the door and you go from there. He said to me there's only three ways people gets over, he says medically, legally or their own willpower. You know they want to, they want to enjoy the journey. And the barrier there on the last one always has been in the workplace anyway stigma I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to get blackballed. You know I can't provide for my family. So this is how I've got to live and that's not true anymore, you know. And where the paradigm really shifted was the opioid crisis, and you know, god forbid if anything good came out of the opioid crisis was people were opening up because they were struggling and they were looking for help and that's continued. You know it's continued. So you know when it's okay not to be okay and people realize it and people start to process in their minds I guess what the rest of their life is going to look like a lot of light bulbs go on and you know there's just so many different ways of accomplishing that. Now you know you're a 12-step guy, right, and that kind of you know the 12-step program. There's one word there that you know in those groups that really said it, all until recently is anonymous, whether it's, you know, alcoholics Anonymous, narcotics Anonymous, al-anon. You know you were driven underground and it's amazing the presentations that I give anywhere from 10 people to 200 people at a time or more, and when I'm done with the talk I'll come up and say, hey, thank you for that. You know I'm celebrating 30 years, or I celebrating 30 years, or I'm celebrating 25 years or I'm celebrating 10 or a year, whatever. People don't have to be anonymous anymore.
Speaker 2:A good friend of mine I don't know if you know Greg Williams at all he did the film Anonymous People and he did it when it wasn't cool and you and you know you had Chris Herron in it. You had other. You know Chris Herron resonated with me a lot, the basketball player, but that really you know he threw that out there and it really got some play and it helped a lot of people. And then his group Facing Addiction, which is no longer around, but they were on the cusp of breaking the stigma and I can say I'm very proud in 2015 that I was part of that. They did an inaugural concert on the Ellipse in Washington DC in the middle of a hurricane, but you know you had Sheryl Crow, steven Tyler, jason Isbell you know you name it show up who were all in recovery from the music world, which you know I respect a lot because they continue doing what they're doing and they're proud of their recovery.
Speaker 2:That was the start of breaking down stigma on a big, big scale. And then you see it just continuing following up. And then the opioid crisis hit. Following up, and then the opioid crisis hit and you know those companies that I referenced before that were throwing me out because they didn't want to talk about it, all of a sudden were losing key personnel. The families weren't affected. They were affected personally, whether it was a son, daughter, cousin, brother, whatever you know and then they started to try to understand the problem as much as they could to make changes and you know I'm blessed that people like myself that do workplace peer work and have been doing it for a while were there to help to pick up the mantle a little bit and to spread the word, you know yeah, I'm a big believer that that having examples like ease or stigma, stigma or normalized another word that I love to put into this bucket right, like for me at.
Speaker 1:You know, I work for a giant multinational corporation which we talked about over lunch a little bit there, right, I knew, I worked there 12 years and I knew nobody in recovery maybe one, yeah, and as soon as I became a voice and got loud and became an example, they came out of the woodwork. They're everywhere. Yeah, and and not to beat up on the word anonymous, because I know it has it's an important thing in an important place. But that move, that movie that you refer to, is on my website. I love that movie. I, I, I share that.
Speaker 1:Even the trailer is great and it's like the, we're the anonymous people like, because I, for years, nobody knew why is that? And now that I'm comfortable with it, my own journey in that regard, there's, there's so many of us, and then when somebody sees that from a distance or up close and they realize, wow, this is interesting, right, curiosity shows up. Now we've got a different ballgame, in my opinion, until you can get to that curiosity and this awareness that there's opportunities and there's different people doing it different ways, et cetera. Man, you're just all by yourself doing that stuff and it's no good.
Speaker 2:And you know I was very humbled this week when I went to the White House to talk about this and workplace recovery-friendly workplace roundtable that the White House had and you know there were 14 business and labor leaders sitting around the table talking to Raul Gupta, the director of the office of national office drug policy it's a big, long name and Tom Cordero from SAMHSA, you know, and their staff, and we're talking about and talking about how we're going to continue to grow this.
Speaker 2:And you know one thing that I always say is you know researchers my research friends are not going to like what I have to say now, but we don't need any more data, we need workers, we need people out there doing peer work in the workplace because the resources that you know NIOSH had developed and CDC and SAMHSA and you know the materials there, everything's there to put in place a good workplace peer program. You know I'm fortunate enough to be a member of the National Building Trades Association, napto and North American Building Trade Unions and you know we're pushing workplace peers on construction sites all the time. You know, get trained. And peer programs look so different. You know they can be very formal, they can be very informal. You know they can be, you know, one person in a company or 100 people in a company, it doesn't make any difference. As long as the message is out there, help is available and we'll get you to help.
Speaker 1:Love it. Well, I got to ask you more about the time you spent at the White House, because I saw a couple LinkedIn posts that you were one of the people there, though I never saw a photo of you. Maybe you snuck out of the frame. I'll send you one. I thought maybe you snuck out of the frame.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, there's one that the AFL-CIO has thrown around with me in it, so I'll send you that after we're done.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, so you're sitting there. You said about 15 people. What are the questions? I mean, are you privy to be able to share a little bit about that conversation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was very open, very public. I have them right here. You know we had Director Gupta's Labor Secretary, lisa Gomez, who you know. Having somebody from the Department of Labor there is huge, because under the Department of Labor, two agencies that I deal with pretty much exclusively in the health and safety world is OSHA and MSHA, you know, occupational Safety and Health Administration and Mine Safety and Health. I know where you're at. And you have Washington State OSHA, which is very progressive and very good. I've done some work with them, but you know to have the secretary there talking about what you know the Department of Labor is looking at doing and OSHA finally, finally, finally, recognizing this as a workplace hazard because of workplace impairment, fatalities and everything else. And that's that's the message that I've been trying to get OSHA to recognize for 14, 15 years and they're finally doing it.
Speaker 2:And you know, when you look at the safety realm of things, you always look at electrical hazards, slip trips and falls struck by and caught in between. Those are the four pigeonholes that OSHA has always put injuries in, from day one of OSHA, which was in 1972 when the OSHA Act was signed, and then they never updated it when we were building our program myself, the program's coordinator, who will be stepping into my role when I retire, ashley Dwyer, and a very good friend of mine from the industry, marco Carr, who's a big advocate. We were sitting in my office and said we need a hook. And they both looked at me and I said what's a hook? I said, well, when we start talking about our member to our membership construction workers, what are the things that they relate to? Well, I said safety. They'll listen to safety. They may not look like they're listening about safety, but they are. So make this a safety issue, because you know what?
Speaker 2:Almost every accident to the T that I have investigated since I was a lost control rep at a Hartford Insurance Group to my days in the union, there's some form of impairment, whether it's physical impairment or mental impairment. Physical meaning drunk or high at work, and mental impairment of hey, brett, you got to go to work in an hour. Oh shit, I haven't slept all night. You know, I was worried about my son, my wife, my daughter, my friends, my this, my bum, it doesn't make any difference and you go to work and you're mentally impaired, and it's called presenteeism, and you're not there doing the job that you're supposed to be doing. You're thinking about everything else, but what you're doing and presenteeism probably kills and hurts more people than anything else on a job site or in the workplace both industry and construction and you know people always say, well, what's presenteeism? Like I say, okay, driving down the highway, you know you're supposed to get off at that next exit. What do you do? Drive right by. That's presenteeism. You're thinking about something else, either subconsciously or consciously. So that's one thing that we really need to work on with the agencies like OSHA and MSHA, looking at the data from accidents and we're starting to see that now they're starting to accept data from autopsies, from accident investigations, from post-accident drug testing. All that stuff was buried for years. Now it's starting to come out a little bit and hopefully in the next few years you'll start seeing that being used to support my argument on being impaired at work, mine and others, a lot of others.
Speaker 2:But getting back to the White House, you know Secretary Lisa Gomez was there, tom Cordero from SAMHSA was there and the findings from Forrest Marsh, that organization that presented at the SAMHSA event. They had another thing with HR and how many HR professionals know about recovery-friendly workplaces? And very little like 6% maybe or less have any idea what's going on. So they gave that finding and then we went around the table and we had people from Thermo Cool, gorilla Glue, associated Building Contractors, myself from the International Union of Operating Engineers, steve Romero from United Auto Workers, who gave a very good presentation on what the industry is doing, and just a whole bunch of us sitting there talking about what each individual person is doing and then bringing it back around to you know how can we tie this into more policies? Really? And a lot of people don't like to hear that, but we need it. We need it and we got to really start figuring out how we're going to guide people to recovery-friendly workplaces, how to again continue to remove the stigma and give people the opportunities for recovery that they need and give people the opportunities for recovery that they need.
Speaker 2:And you know, one thing that I did quote, which came out of thin air and I kind of like it. The way it came out was when I was asked what's the definition of a workplace peer, I guess. And I said the ability to give the rank and file workers the power to help. That's all. It is Real, simple. Give the workers the power to help. That's all. It is Real simple. Give the workers the power to help. You know, if somebody needs a day off and you can cover for them, give them that day off so they can have a mental health day, they can go to their meeting. You know, one thing that I'm very proud of in Connecticut and that our workers have embraced not 100%, but the major ones have is giving people time off during the work week to go to counseling, to go to a meeting, to do this, to do that within reason, and it works it works.
Speaker 1:Well, we're cruising through some great topics here, kyle. So you mentioned I made a note here. Do you want to? Because you dropped a cliffhanger in so you did that. So who's Jerry Marcel? And talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Jerry Marcel is a person that I met in 2010 when we were starting the program. So I found a group called the Labor Assistance Professionals, or LAB, primarily organized union peers that do work in this space and have been doing so since the mid-'90s and you know they have an organization that does provide some training that organizations like Ford, the airlines, now the construction industry you know I've gone through lab training and we all become labor assistance professionals certified, going through peer type training. I met Jerry. He was the EAP for Pratt Whitney and he retired and he started his own. During his time at Pratt he went and got you know the clinical degrees and licensed drug and alcohol counselor and started his own firm. And through the LAP organization I met Jerry and we clicked. The mindsets were the same and he opened up and I can only describe Jerry as a country doctor. You know somebody that really cares, meets you where you're at, you know and when I say that I mean physically He'll get in his car and drive to where you're at and you know he just relates, he's easy to talk to and gives good advice. He was the main reason we fired and saved money in our health fund. You got to understand Local 478 and a lot of trade unions are self-insured. We're an ERISA plan, tap, hartley plan and we have our own mini insurance company. So we were paying a provider a lot of money a year to have a less than 1% utilization, but we had to provide it. So at one of the board of trustees meetings I said we got to do something. And the executive director of the funds we all agreed that you know this is crazy. And Jerry took the opportunity and came in to Local 478, and we have him on retainer. So we have a full-time licensed clinician available to all the union members retirees and families 24-7, 365 days a year, and his staff has grown to three clinicians now. So you know I can pick up the phone now and say Jerry, I got a guy in crisis. Okay, give me his number, I'll call him right away. We work together. We get them on the phone together.
Speaker 2:Getting people into treatment has just become so easy. I mean, you know you develop some relationships with a few local and not so local treatment centers and before you know it you know when you make the call yeah, we got a bed, or if it's an IOP, you know Jerry can handle it or if they're not comfortable with Jerry, we can find another clinician. It just makes it so easy. And again, when somebody calls for help and they made that decision, okay, it's my turn. And you know, you get an 800 number and please hold. And what's your zip code? Here's six providers you got to make the call. No, that doesn't cut it. You lose those people right away. Right away. You've got to be able to respond within minutes, minutes.
Speaker 2:One of my best stories is last Christmas. Christmas Eve I got a call from one of our members who I knew was struggling, and the grandfather called me and said you know he's here. I think we got to talk to him right away and I went up to the house Christmas Eve and within 20 minutes Jerry had him on the phone. We had him going into a facility that night on Christmas Eve. Now the kid's out working, he looks great, he's happy, he's healthy and you know well on his way.
Speaker 2:But those are the type of things that confront people every day and they don't know how to handle it. And so we've got to make the tools. That's what I again I made that pitch on Wednesday. We've got to make the tools. That's what I again I made that pitch on Wednesday. We got to make the tools available and we got to make it at the grassroots level. And because sometimes people get into training you know, okay, I want to be a peer and they get lost in the minutia of it. Really, what is our goal? What's our goal on a peer? Get people to help. I'm not a clinician Never have been, never will be. I did sleep at a Holiday Inn, but don't expect me to solve your problem. I'll help you, but I'm not that guy. And that's a true peer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that moment that you just a little bit ago, that person who talks to the other person, that moment when somebody says, hey, I want to talk to you about this thing. You know anybody that's been in recovery a while and we all have our journeys of when we opened our mouths, right, when we started going beyond. At least I call it my small voice, right, my small voice that was working on me, but that was right here, right when we started going beyond, at least I call it my small voice, right, my small voice that was working on me, but that was right here, right between my ears and man, those moments when those people open up and what happens next is absolutely critical and having a safe ear, somebody who's ready, like you said, not to fix it right, because that's misguided, but to be an ear and then to help them toward what's going to work for them, right.
Speaker 2:Every time I train peers now I say you know you're on a road, you're on a journey and what's there to protect you from going off of that road? People look at me, what are you talking about? I say I'm talking about guardrails. I said I'm talking about guardrails. I said you've got to set up personal guardrails as a peer to keep your focus on getting the people help. There's too many times I've seen peers get drawn into something they shouldn't be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think most corporations get uncomfortable with that too, and that's one of the things that was sort of a that's a barrier. It was a huge barrier, and once it was clear that nobody was going to be giving medical advice, you know that we were able to point at our EAP and our different medical opportunities. But to what you said a little bit ago, the EAP utilization though I never saw the number, I think that many times companies think, well, low utilization number means it's better. Yeah, no, it's the opposite, and that's what I was trying to advocate. Low EAP numbers is a red flag, it's flashing red. Do you concur with that?
Speaker 2:analogy Absolutely, absolutely. Again, when a co-worker talks to another co-worker and they ask that question, how'd you do it? And oh, I went to the CR unions guy. Jerry, you ever see Better Call Saul? We should get T-shirts made up Better Call Jerry, because that's, you know, that's what it is. He has a rapport with the guys and they know him. You know, the best advertisement for an effective peer program or internal EAP program is the people that have been through it. And that's what's happening, you know. And as time goes on, the pyramid effect is there. You know, reverse pyramid you start small but then you end up big. You know, you grow it from the bottom up and you save lives. Yeah Well, let's, let's.
Speaker 1:I'm really digging this conversation. I enjoyed your speech at the event as well, so thank you for the work you're doing too. One of the things that's perplexed me is and you touched on a little bit ago is this recovery-friendly workplace movement. It rolls off my tongue, it's commonplace to me, but it's not that long ago that it wasn't, and I just had a fairly recent opportunity to speak to a group of HR professionals at a large company very progressive, very caring, thoughtful, et cetera and at the conclusion of it I came away realizing that that isn't rolling off tongues of people that are in the business of HR. So I see a huge opportunity for HR professionals, companies et cetera, eaps, even because our EAP had some trouble as well.
Speaker 1:I see huge opportunity and I want to be a part of an advocacy to make that happen. I don't know exactly how that works. You know I see things. I'm aware of some mechanisms. I see people like me that are starting to approach companies and say we did it here, you can do it too, kind of a thing. Let me add one more thing to it and then over to you is one of the things that I took away from that conference. The most was from Vicki at Shaw Industries.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was at the.
Speaker 1:White House. Also. One of the things that really jumped out from that whole event was what she said was they've got different business units and they're all unique in that it's not a one size fits all and you got to approach them again back to where they are. So love your thoughts on advocating for recovery, friendly workplaces and how we can get louder, and also this idea that there's not a right way and that the police aren't at the door to take away everybody's booze and that kind of thing, but instead to enroll and make it safe to get help. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean when you build programs they either go one or two ways right. They come from the top down or the bottom up. With Recovery Friendly, it needs to be a combination. It needs to be a combination. And you know companies that I've worked with, especially in the construction industry. The construction industry and industry overall it's pretty micromanaged when you look at it and it all comes down to what Dollars.
Speaker 2:So what's our benefit going to be right? What's our benefit, what's the return on the investment? And you know advocates never really liked that because you know it's kind of like the man watching you and whatever. But we've got to understand people in recovery, got to understand that they own a business, the workforce. Without them we don't exist. Without us they have problems existing right. So we really need to marry the two and the return on investment can be our biggest advocate, our biggest selling point for a recovery-friendly workplace, especially for those that don't know anything about recovery. But again, the data is starting to come and show what peers and support and effective programs are giving you back.
Speaker 2:So, for every dollar you spend, is it four, five, six, seven, eight? I don't know, but it's not a negative, I'll tell you that. So you should always look on the positive side. It's two bucks, two bucks. If it's $8, it's $8. It's still better than losing it, with losing people having to retrain loss of accidents. I mean, we got insurance companies now looking at this okay, which I'm not a fan of insurance companies, but they're a necessary evil. But they're looking at this OK, which I'm not a fan of insurance companies, but they're a necessary evil but they're looking at this and they're saying you know, just like in 1979. Let's go back. We'll talk about culture change, if you want. Culture change comes slow in industry and construction right in the workplace Comes very slow.
Speaker 2:In 1979, when I entered the construction world on a different level as a loss control rep for the Hartford, where you go out and you do safety type stuff, our biggest challenge in 1979 was to get people to wear hard hats, high visibility clothing, glasses, gloves and boots. Okay, and we were met with every argument that you could conceive oh, it's too heavy, it's going to hurt my neck, I'm going to, you know, catch the levers on the machine on my vest. This is blah, blah, blah, blah. On and on and on. Well, people got used to it. Now you go to job site get out of your truck. What's the first thing you do? Put on high-vis. This and that People give away t-shirts. High-vis, it saved lives. It really did. The data proved it.
Speaker 2:Then we move into the early 80s and we had another big problem with falls. So what did we do? We invented fall protection right, not the optimal, but it worked. People stopped falling to their death on construction sites in industrial settings and it worked. Then we had the ergonomics, culture change in healthcare and factories and construction sites. It all worked. And then we got into leadership training with job hazard analysis. Look at the job that you're doing, analyze how you're doing and see if you can recognize the hazards. Before. But nobody ever picked up on the lifestyle issues. Suicide rates are six times national average in construction, mental health is utilization through the roof and substance abuse. We're still losing 10,000 people in America every year to it. Right Now we're picking up on that and we're equating it.
Speaker 2:Going back to safety, going back into workplace issues that's how you sell it to companies and people are starting to listen now, especially when you get some data. National Safety Council you heard them at that seminar. They're starting to come up with some data on what it costs and where accidents are happening and overdose deaths are happening. On and on and on. Let's take a look at the Narcan or the naloxone distribution in the workplace. That's removing stigma. That's opening up talks.
Speaker 2:I started distributing naloxone in Connecticut in 2000 or 2023. In November I did my first training. I did my first training and probably had 15 people in there. I had to beg them to take the box home. I said, oh, it's yours. It's yours, it's free, the state's providing this. It's yours, it's free, the state's providing this. I did a training two weeks ago on a job site with probably 30 people company people, management people. I had 30 people physically in the room and I went through 15 cases of 12 naloxone. Can I have a case? It's not taking one or two anymore? Can I have a case? It's not taking one or two anymore? Can I have a case? I belong to a motorcycle club. My soccer club wants it. I'm going to give it to the neighbors. I don't care where you put it. It saves lives and it opens up conversations Culture Culture change Big time.
Speaker 2:Culture change again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're watching the naloxone thing. It's been amazing over the last year to see that whole thing completely change.
Speaker 2:And it started with community advocacy groups. You know, taking care of the people that you know need it, and recovery or whatever. But there are two different levels here. Now we've got it in the workplace. You've got an AED in your workplace. You should have naloxone right next to it and chances are you're going to use the naloxone more than you're going to use the AED Right.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd love to circle back on the money thing and then we'll maybe start to head towards the exit here. So the NSC and I'll put a link in the show notes National Safety Council has a calculator that's been around a while for the substance use disorder and I know that I have a lot of HR people that listen to this podcast and hoping you're listening again today. And what I'd love to propose to you and let you run with a little bit, is I believe at least in IT. It is true that there is a door someplace, there is a computer, there are some people that can see potential KPIs, key performance index measurements, measurements and what I found is when I would approach from the money angle and I would give things like the NSC calculator and I would say this is how much you're saving, et cetera, it has been my experience that there's a blankness that comes over the person's face because they're so used to it. This is my proposal to you they're so used to that hidden tax that it seems like an apparition.
Speaker 1:What you're saying isn't true and my advocacy or my suggestion to you is pick five, pick five KPIs. I don't. It doesn't really like whoever is, whoever has access to those numbers, pick five or pick three, or or maybe you even have some suggestions on ones to pick. But and then do some things and see the results, cause I am a build measure learn guy through and through and I'm a data guy, and it's one thing to do this for the kindness and for the right thing and to be part of a culture change, et cetera. But if the company can't see the return on investment, then the longevity of it is in jeopardy. And I'm curious what you're seeing or what you think of what I'm proposing here, which is we've got to get some KPIs in play. A company has to have some key performance numbers to be looking at as they make changes so they can actually see those dollars as opposed to best guess.
Speaker 2:I guess, looking back on it now, going back a little ways, a lot of what we're talking about was built around the opioid crisis. Right, and that name opioid crisis stuck. But that's the tip of the iceberg. That's a very small piece of the problem. So I think one of the things that you need to do is to break that barrier through. Listen, it's not just opioids, because the first thing a company owner will tell you oh, we don't have that problem here, or it's a one-off or two-off or whatever, or don't you see the numbers are coming down? Whole lifestyle issue to make your people better, to put in a wellness program, to put in all kinds of alternative programs that we've been talking about for years total worker health, and you bring it around to that and you know you make changes to your. And you know you make changes to your damn traditional safety programs, where you start to bring those up to date and then you put everything in a big bow with a package and you have healthier front workplaces and you know the relationships that are there are much healthier than they were before. Now the key point indexes I think you need to look at. I haven't really thought about them a lot, but I think I'm hitting on them about. You know total worker health, looking at the way things are being done in the workplace and how you can improve. You know the industries that we work in. Total worker Health is a NIOSH program, as you know.
Speaker 2:Jamie Osborne did a presentation at SAMHSA and I got a company to try Total Worker Health here in Connecticut and one of the things that I told the person from NIOSH that was coming out to the site because they were looking at sleep deprivation and fatigue in the workplace and I said to her I says one thing you need to do is not mention sleep deprivation or fatigue, please, because construction historically is built on overtime and long hours and long seasons, and you know that's what it is. Okay, but I think you're wrong. I says I may be, but if you want to have a discussion, we need to keep it apart, okay, so the first tunnel that we did, we had about 10 workers around in a circle and she says tell me anything that you want about your job that if you could change it, you would. That's an intimate question, right? What do you think? The first one said Too many hours, I don't have time to go to my kid's soccer team and it opened up you know Pandora's box and she just rightly smiled at me and said I told you and you know I get it.
Speaker 2:And we went back and we had a debrief with the company and we said this is the number one issue that your workforce has right now. It's trying to change the culture to make them happier and healthier. And the company said OK, we'll work on that, we'll do some cross training, we'll make arrangements so they can have some time off. And you know, because they work, you know, from February to November and then they have a few months off and that's when you're supposed to take care of yourself and go on vacation and do it. Well, it doesn't work for everybody, right? So you know. Things like that I think we really need to get companies to look at. So it's a friendly workplace, not a recovery-friendly workplace. It's a friendly workplace, worker-friendly workplace, because, again, the words opioid, recovery, with the narrow-mindedness of some people. We don't have that problem here. You do. Let's change the nomenclature, let's change the wording a little bit and get you on board.
Speaker 1:Great conversation, enjoyed our chat very much, kyle. There were many, many things in there that I think are super interesting, including this idea that you got to be grassroots as well, as from the top down, when it comes to recovery-friendly workplace work. And, gosh, I'm just super impressed with the work you've done and all the lives you've touched along the way. It's got to be just massive. So thank you for the work you do. Thanks to all. Just massive. So thank you for the work you do. Thanks to all my listeners. Feel free to you know, follow links to my website, brettlovenscom, and send me a note if you'd like, and until next time, take care, thank you.