Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
The kind of conversations I would have wanted to hear when I was finding my way to sobriety. Conversations that can help remove shame and stigma and move people toward finding help. Substance Use Disorder (addiction) is treatable.
Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
Amanda Polich - Creating Recovery Friendly Workplaces and Embracing Authentic Leadership
Join us for an inspiring conversation with Amanda Polich, a powerhouse in the recovery and leadership space. As a certified Dare to Lead facilitator and a person in long term recovery (11-years), Amanda's journey from shame and stigma to empowerment is nothing short of transformative. She candidly shares her professional roles at UKG, her impactful volunteer work as the board chair for the Council on Recovery in Houston, and how embracing authenticity has shaped her leadership style. Through Amanda's story, hear how Dare to Lead training has been pivotal in her quest to Recover Out Loud and foster a supportive community.
Ever wondered how sharing your recovery journey could impact your career? We explore this with Amanda, taking cues from Brené Brown and other public figures like Rob Lowe, who have turned their sobriety into a source of strength and inspiration. From managing responses with 'the pause' to navigating the various paths to sobriety, this episode underscores the importance of owning your story. You'll discover how speaking openly about recovery can influence both personal growth and professional success, creating ripple effects that encourage others to seek help and make positive changes.
We'll also discuss the significance of recovery in corporate environments, featuring initiatives at companies like Cisco and UKG that aim to destigmatize addiction and build supportive cultures. Amanda shares her firsthand experiences of creating sober-friendly spaces and the joys of sobriety, from newfound freedoms to the small yet profound gifts of gratitude and presence. Learn how Brené Brown's "Dare to Lead" principles are being applied not just in personal lives but in workplaces, contributing to a broader movement toward resilience and recovery support. Tune in and discover how embracing recovery can transform both your personal and professional life.
Amanda Polich on LinkedIn
The Council on Recovery (Houston)
Brené Brown - Dare to Lead™ Hub
- Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
- Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce. From the Office of National Drug Control Policy, the Domestic Policy Council, and 12 federal departments and independent agencies.
- Latest (2022) Data on SUD in the US - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
- Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
- Brett's website: brettlovins.com
Hello there and welcome to the podcast. Today we have Amanda Pulich on the podcast. I'm really excited to talk to her. You know my journey with joining the Recovering Out Loud movement and basically shucking off the shame and stigma that I was carrying around, even though I'd been sober a long time you know happened really after a Dare to Lead training that I took with a Dare to Lead certified facilitator named Susan Mann. And anyway, here's Amanda, who is also a certified Dare to Lead facilitator, and there's not a lot of them. And anyway, here's Amanda, who is also a certified Dare to Lead facilitator, and there's not a lot of them. So they're very skilled and I know Dare to Lead material pretty well, so it's just a natural.
Speaker 1:And we met via LinkedIn. She's also in recovery and she's doing great work at a company called UKG. So with that we'll get to the conversation. So welcome Amanda. Our paths have intersected through the magic of LinkedIn with some shared connections, and LinkedIn said we think you should, you know, connect with Amanda. So I did, I poked the button says connect. And here we are and we've had one conversation already For my listening audience. Would you be willing to introduce yourself and say whatever you'd like about yourself as we move into the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, no thanks, brett. Yeah, I do love the power of LinkedIn and getting connected to people with shared you know visions and mindsets and doing things. You know you talked about people who are doing things and just not talking about it, and so I appreciate you reaching out and having that connection. Yeah, my name's Amanda Polich. I wear a few hats, I guess. I work for a company called UKG. We do payroll HR culture software. It's a job I'm really passionate about.
Speaker 2:I'm a leader within our organization, connecting with clients and trying to retain them and keep them happy and optimize their software. What I love most about that job I get to have, you know, conversations with clients about their people every day, and I would say you know another hat that I wear is I'm a certified Dare to Lead facilitator, studied under Dr Brene Brown, and facilitate her work on the side, both internally in our organization and externally, and love being a part of that because it keeps me on the pulse of leadership and having really authentic conversations to just get better each day, and so I like that piece and I'm currently wrapping up a two-year stint as the board chair for the Council on Recovery here in Houston. It's about a $10 million organization with 100 employees and that has really, I don't know taken all the things that I work on and put them into motion. It's an interesting. This is a working board. It's not a you're just here for good looks or a pocketbook, but really doing things to impact changes in the Houston community. And then I volunteer in other capacities as well.
Speaker 2:But that has, as I've said, I've given that a lot of time over the past two years. The learnings as it relates to you know Dare to Lead and my work life and you know going through changes. You know what I've been given has been tremendous from that opportunity. So that's a little about me. I also I live in Houston, texas. I have two daughters. They're 28 and 29 at this point. I have a couple of grandkids now. I had one and I just got another one, and so when you have more, there's more ability to hang out with them and watch them. So that's fun.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. That's a great start. Thank you for sharing that. So, as I mentioned to you in the past, right, one of the reasons that I've gotten loud and become a recovering out loud person is because of Brene Brown. Like I took a, I took a dare to lead class. I think you were both connected to Susan Mann. You know Susan, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, Susan Well yeah, she's in my neighborhood.
Speaker 1:She's actually right here, oh.
Speaker 2:I love that. Oh say hi.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think she listens to this, susan hi hi susan yeah, so, so, so, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, you know, going through that training, you know, in my corporate world I'd been sober about eight years without a single person knowing that. That I was well, maybe a couple, three, right, not many though and I was navigating quietly. And there's this recovering out loud movement that I became interested in and that, you know, this idea of going into the arena, you know, this idea of showing up and being seen, you know, and having courage, even though it's going to mean I'm going to get my ass kicked a few times probably, you know, launched me into this new, new world. So I say all that because I'm trying to lead toward. I'd love for you to share a little bit about your sobriety journey, because I know that the recovery council and I want to talk about that too. But you, you, you, you share the same affliction that I do correct, and would you be willing to share that with my listening audience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, no, I mean I, you know I'm just nodding and smiling because a lot of similarities on my side as well and I love to hear that. Right, I love to hear that. And I have been sober for almost 11 years 11 years in November, and like you, brett, I mean I kind of live these dual lives. It was kind of interesting. They say drinking is the only thing that you get harassed by quitting. No one ever says, oh, you have to have that donut, or maybe they do, but there's especially in a client-facing role in the software business. It's, you know, especially in, you know, a client facing role in the software business. It's like, you know, we're out at industry events in Vegas and you know everything surrounds alcohol and taking clients to dinner and hosting them. And so really, the first five years of my journey and even here at UKG, I was pretty silent about my recovery. I had my recovery life and I had my work life and I didn't want to talk about them. And what I've known through some work and lots of work years later is that was all the shame around being an alcoholic and what that looks like. And you know, people just finally figured out I didn't drink, you know, I never really talked about why and you know, quite frankly, most people didn't ask me why, and so that was one lesson. You know, people just don't care as much unless they have an issue. But so I kind of went on my separate way and we talked about Dare to Lead and Brene's work. But when I got sober I started following her work and it really was. You know, everything came out like when I needed to hear it, especially in my career, and getting in the arena and getting out there, and I started following what she was saying. And when she called for facilitators, it was in conjunction of hey, you know, no matter what the outcome is, I'm going to get in the arena, no matter, I'm going to be me and get in the arena, no matter the outcome. So I thought I'm going to apply for this. You know, like I didn't have some of the things she was looking for, but I had leadership and I was in the business world and I think she wanted to see this program get infiltrated within, you know, the corporate community, and so I thought I'm going to get in the arena.
Speaker 2:I got accepted in at the same time, kind of, you know, on those roads. You know, I was a board member at the council on recovery and the board chair asked me if I would chair a luncheon. We have two luncheons every year. We bring in big names, big speakers Rob Lowe, andrew McCarthy he was the year that I did it and people really share a little bit of their story on stage. And I finally thought, you know what? I'm going to go big or go home. There's a thousand people in this room. I'm going to invite my boss and my coworkers and I'm going to share a little bit about my story.
Speaker 2:I was tired of living two lives. I lived two lives and since that point I got vocal about it and because what I know for sure is like there's a solution and people can recover, and there's people inside our organizations that are suffering, and I'm passionate about business and I'm passionate about healthy communities and getting sober is one of those things. And so you know, since that point I would say that I've recovered out loud. I started a group here at UKG for a sober community, where we're small but mighty but, you know, had the backing from our leadership here to do that. You know there's some work to be done, but you know that's really.
Speaker 2:You know where I think about recovery today and it's all of those intersections. You know that we talked about of things to just come together in the right spot. You know whether you know we talk about our higher power in the right spot. You know whether you know we talk about our higher power or the universe, or you know, I just think the stars aligned. And you know I'm really grateful for that because the amount of people that I've gotten to connect with and you know we had Brene Brown speak at our last luncheon this past spring and what was amazing about that is she told this room we had 1500 people in the room for Brene. She said you know, if you're a business, you should hire somebody in recovery because I tell you they are going to produce for you and I believe that. You know, I believe that. So, yeah, that's a little part of my story.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about Brene a little bit more. That feels like a natural. People that are listening to this podcast may not know who Brene Brown is. I encourage you to go look. In fact, I'll put a link to a couple of things into the show notes. A leader in leaders.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And she is in well. I don't know if she uses the word recovery for herself when she spoke. Does she use the word I'm in recovery, or how does she frame that she doesn't drink anymore? I know that she doesn't do drugs anymore, but she did right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think you know what she says. Yeah, she definitely. I'm not sure if she qualifies it. Sure, if she qualifies it, I think one of the things that's great about Brene is that she tries to not qualify it and make that her identity.
Speaker 2:But one of the things that I loved, and she put this out right about and maybe you can link this in your show notes too, but she put this out right when I was going through the Dare to Lead training with her and sharing that luncheon five years ago about, you know, sobriety is her superpower. Sobriety is her superpower and she owes everything that she's had in her career to working a program. And you know the program can be different. You know there's 12-step programs, but there's also, you know, other programs and she's really focused on this place between stimulus and response and what my reaction is between stimulus and response, and in the recovery world we call that the pause, and so I think her, you know, sharing her story, as I shared with her, it's really impactful. It's made a lot of people be able to own their story and their stories may look different. Right, it may look different than it may not be recovery from alcoholism or addiction. It may be something else, but whatever, that story is giving people the courage to step inside that story and own it. And so, yeah, I mean she definitely attributes her success to getting sober so many years ago. I think she's celebrating 30 years, it might be 29. I can't quite remember, but it's been a long time.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think what's interesting about Brene's story is that you know she didn't have like some. You know, I think what's interesting about Brene's story is that you know she didn't have like some. You know she didn't have a ton of external consequences, but she could foreshadow and see what was coming and she thought I want to get off this bus, I want to get off this train. My family's riddled with addiction, and so, you know, one of the things I take away from her is right, and I did this, I've done this for myself. It's like when we have the power to step inside our story, we get to write our own ending. You know, or the story controls us, and I take that to heart and continue to try and coach and lead people on that today.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. So I want to say a couple of things through there. So you know, you have this luncheon. You named Rob Lowe as one and I'll put a link to the luncheon speakers because it's an impressive list and, for those that didn't pick up on it, this is a group of people that are coming to the stage to a large group of people that are celebrities that are saying either I'm in recovery or I'm sober, or however they frame that up.
Speaker 1:I believe that having people like that step forward can have huge impact, and I'll define huge as even one person right that, that, that when and if you in your story too, you probably have moments where you heard about somebody who was sober, maybe when you were still drinking. I have those and those were kind of irritating at the time, but it was. It was part of this process for me, and so I really do believe in the power of recovering out loud and how much impact those, those courageous people, have when they hit the stage and share their story. So I would love to link that in the show notes, if that's cool, that link.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So what's your feel? For what? I just my proposal, just then. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean, what I'm thinking about, brett, is you know, the impact of one and the impact on one. We talked about that at the council and we just never know who we're going to impact. And if we can impact one person, the ripple becomes the wave. And to your point, you know, we don't know what those data points are going to be and who that person is going to come in in our lives and when they're going to come in. But you know, we talk about planting a seed, right, this goes back, you know, and I think it's biblical, you know, planting a seed and then running with that. And you mentioned, you know, I was still drinking when, you know I knew somebody that was sober.
Speaker 2:My story is a little different. I didn't know anyone who was sober when I was drinking. I mean, I thought I didn't, I didn't see any like reason why you should stop drinking. I mean it's founded like, you know, bananas, like why would anybody quit drinking? It's, you know, I mean I just couldn't fathom. But you know, the consequences in my life were starting to add up and so, you know, I started getting into action and doing right. And so I, you know, did, did treatment, I did IOP. I did, you know, 12 step meetings. I had a therapist, I mean you name it. I had everything and I still didn't really want to quit drinking. But I started hearing those messages, right, and when I heard other people's stories, it helped me connect to my story and when I shared my story out loud it helped me get clear on what I wanted.
Speaker 2:So, when we talk about things, you know it's those data points. And so, going back to your question, right, you know we have a room of 1000 to 1500 people who are invited by others. It's, it's a, it's kind of an interesting, it's a great thing. We've done it for 40 years here in Houston with speakers that you mentioned of it, and may not know anything about being in recovery, not know anyone that's in recovery, but what comes out of those conversations is hey, you know my brother, hey, I have a daughter.
Speaker 2:You know those discussions and how can we get help? But you just never know the impact, and I can look back and think the impact of people you know. I would even, you know, go so far to say as, like the Salesforce crew that started a you know the Salesforce sober group, I mean I started connecting with them having conversations with Marin Nelson. You know these are the impact of those discussions and you know back to what you were saying is like we get to do things from that, right we? I don't know if that answered your question.
Speaker 1:Well, it does. And yeah, and you spoke to it through. You know a couple lenses there One, you know, before you're sober, right, Because and I love that you shared your truth about you know finding your way to your moment of change, right, and that along the way you'd done things and you still weren't thinking there was a need to quit, I mean, which sounds like we're both alcohol-centric folks. But yeah, I mean, you know, and of course that's the same, and there's a power in what you just shared about. You know, I'm really lucky that there's these organizations where these people coalesce and they tell their stories and they give me the opportunity to tell mine to your point a minute ago, right, and we can't know who's being influenced by what at any given time.
Speaker 1:And you know, you've been around long enough, you've seen examples of something that really resonates with you, not resonating with somebody else, but this idea that it's possible because it seemed like the Grand Canyon, and I'm evil, can evil Right there, I can't get this. I can't get over this canyon. This is impossible. I mean, I can think about it, but as soon as I let my mind wander into well, what about Christmas? What about? I mean these insignificant things, but there was a reason to stop me from getting that distance that I needed to get my brain healthy.
Speaker 1:And so when you hear these stories Jamie Lee Curtis you know I can't remember all the names that were on that list Carrie Fisher's on there, you know, there's a lot of people that are coming forward and I would propose people like Maureen, people like you, people like at Cisco in the corporate world because that's where I'm hanging out these days, as you know, there's massive opportunity and even for Brene to stand on the stage. A moment ago you shared that she's saying hire people that are in recovery. I know there's HR people that listen to this right, and it's like there are examples that are underway Salesforce, cisco, ukg, others that are doing this kind of stuff to making it okay to talk about, okay to connect, okay to be different at the dinner party, right, etc. And I'm just convinced that there's a wave, that there's a wave happening here. I guess I'm segueing into corporate America a little bit through there.
Speaker 2:So yeah love it.
Speaker 1:Anything resonate there that you'd like to?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:I, you know the numbers and I'm sure I have old data, but the number that I always land on is, you know, 70% of people in active addiction are employed and they're working in our organizations and you know some of them want some help, some of them don't right, but you know. Another thing I think about is as leaders, you know, being able to identify some erratic behavior. You know, is that's kind of key and and they're here and we sweep that under the rug. We were just not talking about it enough. I'm I'm super grateful that I work for an organization that was behind, you know, getting this up and running and an advocate of having something here, although we need to do more, you know, and it's you know what we're trying to do more with that in corporate America. I think that's one of my next focuses. I mean, you know, trying here in Houston to get. You know we have some big corporations here that have focused on, you know Chevron's one. They have a, you know, a substance abuse, you know, wellness team. I mean they have a substance abuse wellness team. I mean they're really focused on that. They're pretty supportive. Halliburton's, another one.
Speaker 2:There are organizations here, but I want to see it happen more. I want to see it happen more inside my organization. I always just tell people I have a day job and so it's time, and know it's it's it's time and and getting people to to dedicate to that. But I'm so glad to see more people talking about it, right, cause it does make a difference and, you know, one of the interesting things is that, you know, at this luncheon it really is. There's unique in this organization. By the way, I wish every major city had a Council on Recovery and did these speaker series. We seem to be pretty unique in this arena.
Speaker 2:I see Brene get on stage, or when I see, you know, the president of this organization, this major corporation, get up on stage and, you know, share their story, like maybe maybe that's me, maybe I can do that. It is huge impact. And I told a gentleman here in town and I'm not going to give up his name, but I told him one day you know, as part of nonprofits, you're always looking to raise money and you know, and I told him, I go. You know, I don't want your money, I'll take it right, I'm not going to turn it down, but I don't want your money. You, sharing your story is, and this person's, super open about their recovery. But you, sharing your story has more impact than you realize, right? Because of the position that you hold in this community and in this business world, and so, you know, the more people we can do, you know, I just think we're just at the beginning, though, you know.
Speaker 1:Totally agree, and I agree with your assessment, too, of the power of one person's story and one person's willingness to be out there with it. And I'm going to circle back on a couple of stats just because this is a good spot in case my again, I'm hoping to attract more HR folks. So I'm hoping for HR folks who are listening, like you just dropped a stat that I think is really, really cool, but not cool I don't know if that's the right word for it but this idea that we've got, you know 70, 70, 70% of people with substance use disorder and I'm using those words intentionally because I don't want to label somebody an addict or an alcoholic or anything else that it can have varying degrees, but medically speaking, they're in the zone of danger. 70% of them are in the company. So I look at companies that are doing so many great things right, great teams of people that are setting up mindfulness sessions, yoga sessions right, they're doing mental health sessions but the stealthy little thing that is just now making an appearance is this idea of recovery, sobriety and this disease that is affecting people and their families. So we're talking about employees and their families, and yet it has been my observation that it's just not there and it's because of shame and stigma. So I'm going to get to this. I'm circling back on this.
Speaker 1:When a leader, somebody with a little bit of influence, steps up and says I'm in recovery, I'm one of 24 million, as a matter of fact, in the United States the impact can be so significant.
Speaker 1:And in my personal experience, which isn't necessarily a model of the entirety of corporate America, but in my little world where I stepped up a very small voice, the only voice in a company as large as Cisco, and what happened when I started and what happened as far as people reaching out to me and the number of times I would hear from people you know, that were in their own journeys but that it had become something that could be talked about, and then I'll just conclude with this and hand it back to you is.
Speaker 1:You know, I of course, still follow. I'm still tight with the people inside Cisco because that's important to me, even though I don't work there anymore. And you know I made some waves with the events team as well and they're doing some things with this great, this next event that's coming up this week around sober spaces, sober events that's Martian two years ago ago, that's another planet, two years ago, and all these people are excited about it and I'm just thinking, well, that's a nice win. How much more winning is there to be done everywhere? Okay, that's enough out of me, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, I love it and yeah, I mean to see the work and we're out there and you know, I was just as you were sharing, brett, I was thinking, oh, I need to reach out to somebody. That reached out to me, right, because it's out there, right, it's out there on our intranet. I had two people reach out and say, hey, I saw your, like, there's a story about me on UKG today and I mean it's a little dated, right, it was from about four years ago, but people are still coming across. That, it's my understanding. We were at one point talking about it in new hires but it, you know, it made me realize to, you know, to reach back out to some of those people is to, you know, to reach back out to some of those people to have conversations and see how they're doing, because it's just important. And you know, if we go back to the vulnerability piece and the shame and stigma, right, it's, it's so deep, it's so deep that you know, if somebody has the courage to reach out, you know I want to take the time to give them the space, whatever that space is that I need, that's, you know, the most important thing that I do today is give people the space on that, and you know, I'll add around the shame and stigma. I mean, it's still there. You know it's still there and a lot. You know we're having these conversations, but, you know, externally it's a little bit different.
Speaker 2:And, and trying to break that I will say though, excuse me, in June we had an event at UKG and the marketing team it was a women in leadership team and we were in Austin and they had, like tonight's mocktail. So I feel like, you know, and I was so grateful for the events team to do that. Now the challenge is, you know, walking up to the bar with somebody and I'm like super excited about this mocktail option, and you know the bartender's like I recommend the mocktail with some form of bourbon or something you know like, and, and you know, the person next to me is like yo, yeah, put that in there. You know this looks really good, but I'm not going to have this without alcohol, which you know is okay too, you know, cause that was me, that was me and so, but just giving those options is huge headway. We'll see what comes up.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know it's like I'd love to see a group at our client conferences. You know that are focused, but you know that one little step you mentioned something earlier you would have never seen a few years ago. Right, you would have never seen a few years ago. So, and you know reality is, you know there's 24 million people in recovery, but there's a lot of other people who don't drink for whatever reason, and and we just like, and that I had to learn in recovery too, because I didn't know that. You know, I thought every and if you didn't drink, I thought it was weird. And so you know, I think you know those those little things, they're, they're, they're making waves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, there, there's no doubt. And and so so I I'd like to add something to the at this point. You know, this idea of shame being toxic and this idea that that woman that's there with you having bourbon in it, the last thing I wanted her to do is feel shameful. Right? Because if I come at this from the standpoint of shame, now I'm doing the opposite. I'm trying to engender belonging and inclusion, and now if I'm shaming people or making them feel bad because they want to get their drink on, that's none of my business, and I think it's fine.
Speaker 1:I think the whole is that we're waking up to this idea that these events, these comings together of people when they want to make connection, you know, historically, you know I'm from the, you know the eighties and I am Gen X, right? So we, that's what we did, right, and so it. It seems foreign to not have that be the centerpiece. You know, that's how you loosen up and etc. But to your point, there's other people that are walking around, that are that are not drinking for religious reasons, for health reasons or whatever else, and the stats are that.
Speaker 1:You know gen z and millennials. They're not as interested in in those kinds of events and so you talk about it from a corporate standpoint and attraction and main, you know, keeping talent around. You know there's just winning to be done. But to circle back, it can't be a shame approach, it can't be we're here to take away your, whatever the heck it is. Instead, it's an awareness that people like me if I have that little bit of bourbon, I don't know what happens, but likely it turns into a year or two of every night again, because I've seen enough stories that have proved that to me that I'm maintaining and I'm protecting my sobriety, and that's an awareness that I think a lot of people like I used to do.
Speaker 2:Come on everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like if you don't have that awareness that this could potentially take somebody down a very, very bad road or continue it, it just doesn't give anybody the opportunity to set themselves up to protect their fellow coworkers, et cetera, when they don't have that knowledge. So over to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think that too, and it's like you know, the little bit deeper you're in recovery. I mean now, it's like you know, I told that woman I'm like, yeah, you should get that in there. You know I still, you know, my mind's still a little bit focused. But what I'm thinking about, brett, is, just like you know, when we talk about belonging, it's like respect where others are at, you know, and have opportunities, right, like you know, the opportunity for me to get something besides a glass of ice water when everybody's having a celebratory beverage. You know, I can have a celebratory beverage too. It just looks different than yours and I do that. Right. Like I don't drink those high sugary mocktails just for the kicks.
Speaker 2:You know like it's normally when it's a celebratory thing, and you know respecting others, letting people be who they are, but also understanding, to your point, like alcohol has different effects on different people and it's, you know, to me it's. It's not about the alcohol, right, it is about the belonging and connection that we're trying to build in the world today, whether that be in our communities or in corporate America. Right, when we do things together, we are better together and we get more done and we have bigger impact, we help people be successful and you know, that starts with giving people a space to do that. And so, yeah, like I mean, I always say, like I'm not the drinking police, and you know, the first year is a little rough, right, the first year is a little rough.
Speaker 2:You're like, how do I navigate these events and how do I do that? And I'm going to go, you know, like you know it is, you know, for me it was a little rough, I'll say that. But now, today, you know, people are like how do you have all those dinners? I'm like I go to the dinners and I let people order whatever they want to order and then I pick up the bill. It's simple, right, but when you were in that all the time, you can't fathom how that's different today. Issue today for me, like those events, all of that stuff, a non-issue. I have an event and a dinner tonight and it'll be just fine. I'll let them order whatever they want and I'll order, you know, a Perrier Double water for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that scenario too. I'd love to just add a little bit of hope and joy into that, just a little bit here in that, and I'm going to propose that this is how I feel. So that same scenario I get up and I go to my car and I put the key in the locker, I unlock the door and I get behind that driver's wheel and I feel fine about it. And I don't know about you, but I have these little blasts of gratitude or amazement that I'm capable of these things. I go home and I decide to go to sleep. I decide to. I'm tired and I'm going to go to sleep. That didn't happen for me for years. And so I go to a concert now, which was scary to your point that first year. It's like how am I going to do this? What's going to happen here? Not that I was going to drink, because I felt good there, but how can I have fun? Let's test it. And it turns out that the world wasn't drinking like I was drinking for starters.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:And second, there's all these small but profound gains that occur that are not, you know, like you, I'm 11 years sober and it's still not lost on me, amanda. I go like what is this? I'm sitting here feeling fine and it's, it's okay. So I love that you're having a dinner tonight, I love that you're going to have Perrier and they'll. They'll have their, they'll have their, whatever the heck. And that's fine too, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think you know some of the things you said around like I mean I get to I, you know what I, what I've landed on in recovery, is. I get to do a lot of things. I get, I mean I, I really enjoy my job. You know we, we're going through a bunch of changes and I really love, like I'm excited about these changes. I, I still I love my job. You know I get to do nonprofit work that I'm passionate about and, you know, connect with my friends, take care of the grandbabies, and you know I get to do that because I'm sober, you know I, I I don't feel bad when I wake up in the morning. You know, and and that's the other thing it's like I think about.
Speaker 2:You know I, the other thing I say is quitting drinking was the best health decision I've ever made. And I didn't make it for a health decision, right, I made it because I, if I kept drinking, I would die. But it's the best health decision that I've ever made. And I get to do all these things. And I get to do all these things really because I keep recovery front and center. It frees up so much space for life and getting to enjoy the life. I'm looking at your guitars right Like and thinking about concerts, and you know I get to go to concerts and truly experience them. You know I'm lucky if I remembered them when I was drinking.
Speaker 1:Totally. Yeah, these are those small and yet profound gifts, and once again, you know, to share with people, because I know I'll get people that are, you know, on their own journey, right, they'll listen to this. And again, it seemed like the Grand Canyon to me, right? But where we sit now and I'll speak for myself to not have all that craving and all that crap in my head all the time about planning my next drink or how I'm going to, you know, hide the last drink, or how there was so much work involved. And you know it's been said before, you know there's a kind of freedom and I love that word in this context Like there's a kind of freedom and I love that word in this context Like there's freedom to go and do things and be available. Somebody could call me and pick them up at the airport at seven o'clock tonight and I can do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. What do you know?
Speaker 1:That used to be something I couldn't do, right, and I'm just telling on myself and giving a snapshot that somebody may be listening goes. Oh yeah, that's. You know that. I know what you're talking about there, because the thing is is that it's common and it's treatable, and on the other side again, I'm speaking for myself it, it works out. You get to do things, you get to, you get to engage in life, you get to become I get to become a human again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, I mean, you know I really relate to the. You know like it is a superpower it's. It's made me better in every aspect of my life, right, you know, and you don't. I didn't think that, you know, I just I again, I wanted to get rid of some consequences. When I got here, I wanted people to stop thinking I drank too much, or I wanted to. You know, personally, I wanted to be able to drink two glasses of wine, but that just never really happened. That's what I wanted when I got here, and what I've been given is and received over and over is so many gifts and it's opened up my life in so many areas that I get to experience and learn from and connect with other people.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I highly recommend it, although it wasn't all that fun at first. You know, I always say like I was pissed off the whole time, like I was, I didn't want, I didn't want any part of it, but you stick around long enough. And then you know, looking back, I needed every bit of that. And then you know, really focusing on, can we just show one man or woman, one other person out there, that their life if, if they think they have a problem with a substance, alcohol or anything else. You know, there is a solution and life can get better.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Amanda. Great conversation. I really dug talking about recovery through the lens of Dare to Lead and Brene Brown's work, and that's sort of where we ended up, which was super cool. It's such an important element to why I started doing this. Also, thank you for the work you're doing at UKG and, you know, standing up a group inside of a large company like that A lot of companies are doing it it's cool, it's a movement. I'm convinced we're at a tipping point. And also thank you for the work you do at the Council on Recovery. There'll be links in the show notes Until next time. Thank you very much. Take care everyone.