Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
The kind of conversations I would have wanted to hear when I was finding my way to sobriety. Conversations that can help remove shame and stigma and move people toward finding help. Substance Use Disorder (addiction) is treatable.
Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
Keri Clark - Professional Psychologist & Childhood Friend Discussing Our Recovery Journeys
My childhood friend, Keri Clark, takes us through his tumultuous yet inspiring journey of grappling with substance use disorder. We reminisce about our wild teenage years and the different paths we took post-high school, offering a raw and unfiltered look at the intersection of mental health and addiction.
In a revelation that's both sobering and enlightening, Keri candidly discusses the clever tactics he used to disguise his drinking problem at work, from meticulous wardrobe choices to strategic sick days. The episode takes a deeper turn as we explore his eventual acceptance of his alcoholism, the internal battles he faced, and the profound realization that his journey to sobriety was a deeply personal one.
The power of community and social support is a recurring theme, as we share personal anecdotes that highlight how crucial old friendships and shared experiences are in the recovery process. Whether it's navigating the emotional turmoil of maintaining relationships while overcoming addiction or becoming a beacon of hope for others, this episode underscores the importance of honesty, self-awareness, and the necessity of making recovery programs work on a personal level. Join us for a candid, heartfelt conversation filled with humor and honesty.
- Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
- Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce. From the Office of National Drug Control Policy, the Domestic Policy Council, and 12 federal departments and independent agencies.
- Latest (2022) Data on SUD in the US - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
- Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
- Brett's website: brettlovins.com
Hello, welcome to my podcast Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins. And that's me Today's podcast. I'm going to have a conversation with my friend, kerry Clark. We discovered drugs and alcohol together as we lads 13, 14, 15, right through there. We started experimenting with drinking and also began to smoke pot together.
Speaker 1:He and I parted ways after high school and he found himself on a trajectory similar to mine, as is common with this disease. Similarities jump out once I discover that I'm not unique or special in any way, that in fact, this disease gets all kinds of people, and it got Kerry as well, and he got himself out of it earlier than I did. So, anyway, we weren't in touch for a bunch of years and then we got back together and we're both in recovery and I think it's a fun conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Let's roll it Well. Let's start by just giving you a chance to introduce yourself, if that feels natural to you, kerry, and maybe what you do for work, because I know there's some overlap with you know, substance use disorder and people who have mental health problems, etc.
Speaker 2:if you're up for that yeah, for sure no okay, and thanks for thanks for having me. Man, that's always. I always enjoy talking to you, brett, and uh, and I, I'm, I'm a big believer in in what what I perceive is that you're trying to do and happy, happy to be part of it. So, yeah, my name is is Kerry Clark. I am a psychologist and that means I have a doctorate of philosophy and psychology. I have a PhD and I've been a psychologist since 2002, I believe is when I got my license, so I've been doing that for quite some time.
Speaker 2:I currently work at a private practice in Bellevue called Pacific Behavioral Healthcare. We do not specialize in recovery, that's not our thing. But you know, anytime you work with mental health, you're working with substance abuse, and anytime you work with substance abuse, you work with mental health to a degree. I mean they go together right hand in hand, but it's not usually central to my current work, but it's certainly central to my life and it's something that's near and dear to my my current work. But it's certainly central to my life and and it's something that's near and dear to my heart and I do have some clients here or there that that's their primary thing, but it's a lot of times it's part of the picture, for sure, you know, because when we're struggling, we reach for things, and when we reach for things in excess, sometimes we struggle right. So, and uh, I, I just, more than anything though I view myself as kind of a pragmatist I give that that's the kind of spiel I give to people when they sit down and talk to me come to see me, for therapy is more than anything I want to do. What works, what are you trying to accomplish? And let's figure it out. And and I also, I do really think it's interesting that we're here having this conversation, we're both in in recovery.
Speaker 2:Our story started at the same time with this stuff. You know, the very first drink I ever had was with Brett Allen Lovins, and the very first time that I smoked pot was with Brett Lovins. And the first time that I got high, which was the second time I smoked pot, was also with Brett Lovins, which was interesting, in an abandoned field in the middle of Yakima, next to the movie theater. So, yeah, and I'll never forget those days. So, yeah, it's great to be here and I really like what you're doing. I like the idea that trying to make the recovery tent as big as possible so everybody can find a spot in it. I'm all about that. Yeah, all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'll just add to you know, and also people that are just maybe not ready to call themselves in recovery, but maybe they don't, maybe they can rein it in, maybe maybe they can, they can figure out a way to, to moderate and make it keep it in their lives and stuff, and that's, you know, that's a distinction that is really hard for people that aren't around this to understand, aren't around this to understand. I propose that to you now is that people say, well, why don't you just moderate? Why don't you just slow down? We parted ways in, I guess, 88, when we left college or left high school, so we haven't talked a lot in many, many years. But I'm going to guess your trajectory after we've parted ways.
Speaker 2:All right, I would imagine. So, yeah, well, you know that's interesting that you say about people who aren't close to this non-understanding. You know, I think that's largely true. But that also goes true for why don't you just quit right the and the assumption that I think all human beings, to an extent we naturally operate from the frame of my perspective and who I am, and and then it's really hard for people to truly take somebody else's perspective, because that doesn't mean just putting myself in your shoes. That means being you in your shoes, right, not just in your situation, things with being you in your shoes, right, not just in your situation, things with my thoughts and feelings, and understand these values and biology, but truly and it's different If you've been there, if you're one of us, it is not a matter of willpower, it's not a matter of wanting, it's not a matter of intelligence and part of my trajectory.
Speaker 2:I thought for years that it was because I'm the smartest guy in the room and I was going to figure it out because I'm smarter than everybody else, and that kept me going for a long time. You know, because it couldn't be me, because I'm not one of these guys, you know I'll crack the code and be able to do that, what you're talking about. But I also think some people in certain corners of recovery, the notion of that there's more than one way to skin a cat is difficult for them too. And you know I've talked about that in our own conversations a little bit offline about I think abstinence is certainly probably the most tried and true way and probably the safest way. But you know there's tons of research and people that have been living healthy lives through harm reduction and figuring it out.
Speaker 2:You know here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to figure out where it's too much and when and how to do that. And you know, I think the more we get away from the idea that anybody's got the one right answer and we all work together and through research and, you know, support and whatever you know. And I think I really like what you've said on some of your other episodes about it's working for you and that's great, I'm all for you. You know I don't want to take that from you. I'm happy, it's great it's working for you, but that doesn't mean it's going to work for him or her, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. Well, this is a great foundational start. I'd love to mine our way into some specific stories, because I think stories have a way of bringing to light some things. One of them I'd love to bring forward you already touched on the one where the first time we smoked pot, we're crouched down and basically underneath Arborvitae, and you know, and that was exciting, there was a lot of adventure and all that, and so I, you know, and that was that was exciting, I was there was a lot of adventure and all that, and so I I you know, I look back on that with, with, with a kind of fondness, I think.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah. So, but one of the you know, as we've had these conversations, one of the ones that stuck with me if, if you wouldn't mind, I like this idea that we, you know, we think we can, just we can figure out how to dial it in. You know, if you have this thing, if you're, if you're resistant to the word disease, if you're resistant, you know, condition whatever, I continue to propose that some of us have this thing and it's for me, it's binary, and I know many of this binary. If I take a sip, I'm in big, big, big, big, big trouble because I'll go all the way. But one of the stories I remember you telling me was about, about dressing really nice, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Will you tell that story? That's just a document.
Speaker 2:Of course, and you know, in my experience, sometimes the people who are the most resourceful and sometimes, you know, intelligent or at least cunning, sometimes have the longest runs because they're able to skirt the angles right. And the other story that's probably worth telling in that regard, when I stopped working, was me in the back of a Washington State Patrol car, which there's pretty hard to talk your way out of that one. But so, yeah, I had that. I also had many, many plays I tried to operationalize just how I'm going to be smarter and I'm going to. I'm going to quit or moderate that I tried to. All failed. But so this was just a plane. How do I throw everybody off my trail?
Speaker 2:So I I had a couple of things that in and in work that I found helpful because I knew enough, and I also knew enough about mental health and to work with enough straight up substitute people, as I knew these are the things people look for and I don't want people looking at me. So I had a deal and one of my jobs. There was a morning meeting, almost every meeting where pretty much all the senior people were there, first thing I had to do in the morning. So I realized that if people'm people are noticing me being hung over, particularly on a Monday, then they're going to start, it's going to start to add up and I thought what can I do about that? You know, because stopping drinking, that was clearly not an option, and not drinking on certain nights of the week, that you know, that wasn't going to work for me either. So so, left with, how do I not appear hungover? So one of the things that I would do is the worse I felt, the more hungover I felt, the nicer I would dress, to look more and more professional, and also that I would try to come in and give the illusion of being tripper. So I had this little deal the worse you feel, the better you dress. So there's a tip, there's a pro tip for all you folks who are not quite ready yet, to enable you a little bit longer. But yeah, that was one.
Speaker 2:The other one I had, same job, was don't ever drink yourself silly and have to call in sick on a bookend day of a weekend, monday or Friday. And have to call in sick on a bookend day of a weekend, monday or Friday. They're looking for that. That's in the algorithm of HR problems. So if you need to do it, if you just got to absolutely have a crazy night and not be able to make it to work the next day, make it midweek. So there you go, kids. That will be in my book coming out soon. Brett how to Keep Drinking and Fool the boss by Kerry Clarkson.
Speaker 1:So much work, so much work, so much effort, so much deceit for ourselves and for others. Yeah, and here we are, and you got sober quite a bit earlier than I did. You've been sober. Like how long you've been sober now, Kerry, 19 years, 11-21-04. 11-21-04. And so that, how old are you at that year?
Speaker 2:My birth age, my belly button age. Yeah, how old were you when you were 34?
Speaker 1:I was 34. Okay, that's amazing and wonderful and that's. You know, that's, that's a good age. I always say to everybody, whatever age it is, that's the perfect age. 34 is good, man, 34 is really good.
Speaker 2:Well, so I had. I was in a place in my life where I guess I'll talk a little bit about that, so I knew I was an alcoholic by that point.
Speaker 1:I had known, I had had subtle thoughts about hey, Before you keep going, I want to pause you and say what does the word alcoholic mean to you?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a good question. So to me it means that I do have a disease and that if I have one drink, I will want more drinks and there's nothing I can do about that. And the only thing that I can do to not want more drinks is there's nothing I can do about that and the only thing that I can do to not want more drinks is to have no drinks. And that's just who I am.
Speaker 2:I didn't pick it, I didn't choose it, and to me it's no different than if I had diabetes or you know whatever else. I really do look at it that way and I also think that's another thing and a lot of interesting at least I think they're interesting a lot of thoughts about that, about what that is, what it does in aa. When you say I'm an alcoholic and I think that means a different thing to to in an aa meeting than it means to the average person too, and I think most people don't it doesn't mean I'm a piece of garbage, I'm a horrible person, I have no willpower. I mean say I got this thing and in recovery, it means you know, I'm living'm living a better life and I'm trying to be a service to the world. But but yeah, that's what it means to me, and I don't do it of any negativity, or I really don't.
Speaker 1:I don't feel bad about it, I'm not ashamed to tell you, I actually tell people, my work when it's relevant, you know so Well, I interrupted you to make sure because you said you, you knew early on you'd come to grips with that word, that concept, that disease, and you knew that so well, the earliest thoughts of it weren't necessarily attached to a word, it was more I, whatever this is, I got it worse than everybody else.
Speaker 2:The love that I know most people and I I knew just that I had a problem because because it started becoming obvious, when you get out of college and talk about trajectory and things like that and the arc, people start getting their stuff together and then you start looking at people who, you look at college and boy, that guy's and it's like, oh, he's getting us and I have my life together. But when I got out of college I was like before I went to graduate school I was like got married and moved down to the Bay Area to go to school and I wasn't going to drink at all.
Speaker 2:You know it was a budgetary one. We were in a shoestring budget too. I've got to focus on school. This is a new me. Then, you know, I get a couple of beers was where I was like half rack I can't remember what it was and then boom off to the races again. And I noticed that when I didn't make a point of it, I didn't talk to my wife about it or anybody else, because God forbid anybody else. No, but in my mind I remember that being an early thing, it clicked. It's like ah, that happened really fast. I told myself I wanted to do it and I did it anyway, and that's just a series of those things. So fast forward.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I got a couple of years under my belt where probably I'm saying alcoholic to myself. I don't remember. But I knew I couldn't stop and I knew I needed to at some point. But I think I told you this before. I often describe it.
Speaker 2:As for me, it was the same thing as kind of on a level of cleaning out the garage, I knew it needed to be done, but there's never a good day to do that and there's never a day when I'm going to want to do that ever Right. But I would wake up almost almost every morning and I would actually pray for help. I'd say, please help me. You know, I can't do this anymore. I feel so bad, like physically, you know, not even just and, and I remember I'd sit in my shower and had this little bench on it and I'd stare in the water on me and I'd feel so horrible and I'd be trying to get myself together and being you know, please, I can't stop, I can't do this on my own. And that was for probably a couple of years that that went on. And then, of course, I'd go dress extra nice and nobody would know I was hanging over. Go to work, so yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So I want to gear change into something.
Speaker 2:So we grew up in a small town in eastern Washington or Worshington, depending on how you ask Thriving metropolis I'd prefer. Okay, Palm Springs or Washington.
Speaker 1:We can just go right there, got it out and I think, looking back now, I realize that we were a wild bunch. There were a lot of us, we were doing wild things and the adventure of it was amazing.
Speaker 2:We also had an ethos, I think. Think of around what it was to be, and wild was was cool, and we were definitely yeah, you're right, yeah yeah, and I and I, you know, back to you know, I look back and there was so much dangerous behavior.
Speaker 1:It's a wonder, you know that. You know there were some tragedies that happened, that you know, and there were people going to rehab that I mocked yeah, you're right. Yeah, people in our high school, yeah. And so one of the things I'd love to talk a little bit about because, as I pivot my way into this new world of trying to be an ambassador for the concept of the disease model, et cetera, and be, you know, somebody who's out there talking about it, I think one of the things in my story that I think we're going to be able to have some fun with is the part of my story that is when I'm still, as they say, in my cups and anybody that came in anywhere close to my world that was not drinking or that said anything against drinking, or that question anything in any way.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know what word to use Irritated, pissed off, I mean maybe borderline hate them, which is horrible to say. And as I, as I put out a podcast and I'll just say this man, I would have been so freaking irritated to listen to me. I would have been so irritated, like me too, bro. I mean, come on, who are you goody, you good, good do-gooder, blah, blah, blah, I mean so it's so. I, I can feel that energy. I know that energy's out there. I would have been it. So, anyway, I'd love, I'd love to play around with that one, for with you for a minute or two sure.
Speaker 2:Well, and first of all, I'm really annoyed listening to you right now anyway. So just so you, so you haven't lost a step. But well, you know for sure, I think to some degree we're all that person. It just may be different flavors of it, because if you surround yourself with people who are not doing what you're doing, then it shines a light on what you're doing and the fact of not everybody's doing it, and maybe it's so. Then, whether consciously or unconsciously, I think we all strive to. You know we'd find each other and me because we don't want to have that right. We want to have this common experience. We don't want somebody to shine a light on it or messing up or ask it inconvenient questions or you know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Being angered at people, I guess, which certainly I'm plenty of stuff that takes me down that path. It was more. I found a way to have not be around you and you not be around me and just kind of cut you out. And that also went during that period of time for marijuana as well, and you and I started making excuses to beg out at nine o'clock. Yeah, it was whatever it took to keep the party going right and not to meet up. That's you're boring, you're dead weight, you're absolutely and and I, you know, I still have a healthy annoyance at people who view as self-righteous and trying to shove things on me or anybody else, which is not my experience of what you're doing here at all and I certainly not what I'm here to do and not what I've heard of any of the things that you've had or your podcast. I don't experience that as this at all, you know. But but, yeah, and you know, those people who are there they're not, they won't be listening to this right now, but the people someone who's on the fence and it wants to hear a voice that's not just preaching to you or whatever and somebody has been there and somebody you know, maybe they do, and I think that everybody needs a place where they can go, that they can feel comfortable, and I don't think that exists in the world, you know. I think I think that AA is tremendous and it works for so many people and it's pretty much free and it's everywhere and all the time, but but it doesn't work for everybody either either, and there's no like free equivalent to that's that's around, you know, and and and that's you know I keep going back to this, the idea that, tent, let's make it big, let's get everybody under it, let's have everybody. Because it's a terrible thing, man, I mean, I don't need to tell you it's a terrible thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, look, we also were two of the smartest kids in our junior high and high school. Right not to Not to be arrogant, but we were right, and if it got us, who's it not going to get? Right, you know? And we had good families too that supported us. It wasn't like we were, you know, could say we were, you know, had it bad and that no, not perfect, but you know, it was not a matter of some thing befalling us, it's just both had this bug. It's part of why we found each other. You know, it's not all of it, of course, because we're also we're really good friends, but it is.
Speaker 2:I remember when we started, we met in seventh grade, you and me, different grade schools came to deal. I had been a pretty popular kid in in sixth grade, but I came to seventh grade and some of my friends had gone to different. Uh, because back then, you know, junior high started seventh grade and I was terrified and I had, I remember, you sat behind me in English and I'm sure you probably viewed me as everybody else that is this nerdy kid because I dressed up, my mom dressed me and I was really good student and polite and soft-spoken. But I remember the first day of junior high I was like where are these drugs that people are going to come up and offer me? I remember it was meant to be a scare tactic but I couldn't wait. I'm like somebody's going to come offer me drugs. I remember thinking that and I was like where are the people offering me the free booze and drugs? And I went and found them eventually and it wasn't free, okay.
Speaker 1:I want to tell a story, so I like this idea for me of straws in the camel's back, like there's a series of moments in time that weighed on me as far. And like you said earlier, kerry, between me and me I'm not telling anybody else, but inside, that small voice knows that things are going sideways right and one of them is with you. So we're at our 20-year and everybody call that reunion and you know I've already been drinking tequila with some friends beforehand and I get there and I'm just, I'm just way too wasted, right. But you know, I figure everybody. You know these are the people I grew up with.
Speaker 2:We all drank hard and you know that's the other illusion, that you always have Everybody's right. And then and then, when you sober up, you're like, oh wait, it wasn't everybody.
Speaker 1:It's like that, Will Ferrell, that scene where he's we're streaking, we're streaking, and he's the only guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know we hadn't seen each other in a while and I had this rich. It's been a long time. Yeah, strong attachment, that friendship and getting together and everything. And this, this event, has everything to do with getting as drunk as possible with people I haven't seen in a while. And I run into you and I say to you Carrie, let me buy you a drink. And you said I think you said not an alcoholic one, but you can buy me a Red Bull. So I'm telling you something from what I said a minute ago, carrie, I was so pissed I don't.
Speaker 2:We've never talked about this part of that story I thought we had, but not this part. We talked the if you're going to go to the drive-in home part later we've talked about.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no, this is the part I in that moment, like that, that that it's like two magnets pushed together like it does. The world doesn't make sense for a moment for me, you know, wow, and so I'm going.
Speaker 2:I did not even pick up on that and I that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and then part. So that small voice right, that small voice that's in turmoil, that's like, actually, brett, because this is this, is that straw in the camel's back, that part of me that's work hard, play hard, and we're here to party and there's Kerry and let's get a drink and all that is alive and well. And then that small part of me that goes holy shit, maybe he's quit drinking. That's what I thought and it was a profound moment for me. It was like is that possible that he's quit drinking? And then that other half of me is like what? And I won't use the vernacular on here, but let's just say it's you know inside. It's ironic how that's all happening inside me. And yet at that same time, in that moment, I had a profound straw in the camel's back, because it wasn't until like three years later that I asked you, did you quit drinking?
Speaker 2:Right, I remember that conversation too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, or it might even be more than that, it might've been. Well, we can figure out the math.
Speaker 2:I think it was more, but I but I will always remember that conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so. So there we were, and, and so it's just like these moments that come and go, these moments, these windows of opportunity, these, you know, these handshakes with things that come along, you just don't know how to do right or seeds that get planted and they're dormant and then they get I.
Speaker 2:So that's interesting, because that would have been that that would have had to be in 2008. Right, what had to be 20 years, we graduated 88. So I would have been four years in recovery. New, but not brand new, right, but I was.
Speaker 2:I was very strong in my recovery and I remember my going to that with a sense of confidence of I'm going to be who I am, but I'm not here to to try to proselytize or be whatever. But I'm not going to pretend like you know, I wasn'm going to be who I am, but I'm not here to try to proselytize or be whatever. But I'm not going to pretend like I. You know, I wasn't going to say I'm sick or whatever. I just thought, you know, I'll just I'm going to be who I'm going to be and, you know, let the chips fall where they may and cause.
Speaker 2:I wasn't trying to be that guy, but I. But I was trying to be honest, you know, which was a thing that I'd lost, which is, I think, another horrible thing about this when you're really active in your cups, like you said, somehow on some level, at some point, there always has to be a lie there just does, because you can't fully function, uphold every obligation. You just, sooner or later there's a secret or a lie. You know and I remember that. I also remember if you want, do. Did you want to do? You remember the part?
Speaker 1:on the way home a bit, not not?
Speaker 2:not very well. No, you, you and this was more from our conversation later when you, so I drove you home, you, yeah I do remember that you, you and you and our other friend another friend who's another? Friend, yeah, who also sweet, sweet guy, always good dude who, by the way?
Speaker 1:who, by the way, does not have this condition? Who, by the way, can drink moderately? And was just having a good old time and and was capable of going deep with of somebody like me from time to time, and then go back to normal.
Speaker 2:So anyway, he's just doing his thing and being smart enough not to drive at the time, right, yeah, so so I give you a ride home. And at that point you were, you were, you were pretty, you were pretty soused and and that point I was annoyed with you like you were with me, because it was, because it was, and honestly, you know it was a little pathetic. It was, it was kind of sad, because I'm looking at this guy who's my age and stuff, and I'm thinking and honestly, my thought is I'm glad that's not me right now. It didn't look like fun and it's something about it. I don't remember, but there was just something about it that I it just had all the feel that you weren't an amateur and this wasn't just you. It just I don't know, you know, I couldn't tell, but something about it it spoke to me of and I'm not making this more dramatic than it was, but it was something that was like, you know, it's like okay, this is not, it just seemed to have that feel and that vibe. So you had mentioned I'll buy you a drink sometime. That was another at the end, right, and I said then hey, maybe a cup of coffee sometime, I'd love to catch up or something like that, and that also you'd said kind of stuck with you because I would have. I would have loved to do that, but I wanted to make it be. You know, hey, this is who I am, and also give you a chance to not look me up if you're not of interest, which we then didn't get together for a while. What a coincidence.
Speaker 2:That story to people, young in recovery, or people struggling or whatever about you don't know when just this thing, you're the beacon for somebody else or you're a thing you just don't know, right, and so and I take great hope for that because I don't, I'm sure you have plenty of examples and I do. Now, when you're the sober guy that people know, and you're the only sober guy that people know, you get that call and you can tell the tone of voice hey, you got a minute. It's like, oh, so-and-so wants to talk about booze, and then you become that person for people, which is a great privilege and an honor in my book. But yeah, and another example of how our tapestries intertwine at different parts of our you know of our story, which I think is fascinating, and how we're different people, but there's so many just similarities that are. Just. There's no outrun of this thing, right yeah?
Speaker 1:And coming from the same background and having have having had all those those conversations, you know, when we did reconnect, I felt like we picked right back up and you know we don't see each other a ton, but it always feels just as comfortable as can be. And I mean, I remember telling you, you know, and, and that I, I think I had like nine months sober. When I told you like that, yeah, you told me I can't. It's like that's when I said are you sober? You know, I remember that and this is years later, after that incident, it was years, yeah, yeah. And and you said, yeah, yeah, I've been, I've been sober all this time and yeah, that was cool, that was cool. And then, and then we reconnected. When I moved out here and then for a while there we were going to I like to call them away games. When I moved out here and then for a while there we were going to I like to call them away games we would meet for AA meetings out in between our houses and just randomize.
Speaker 2:I had a lot of fun with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was fun. We might think about doing that again, Kerry.
Speaker 2:Well, I would do that again. No, that was. You know, it's just an example of. I think for different reasons. I think for different reasons. I think we've both been people that are able to take a construct but yet be comfortable making it our own and take what works and leave the rest. I think we were both that way.
Speaker 2:School, you certainly were. I will never forget. I was talking about galling and resenting you. I still resent you for Mr Smith and junior high giving you the student of the year award, when I was clearly a better student, damn it. But he said you can edit this out later. It's not recovery centric necessarily and it makes you look good. So definitely want to edit that out. But I remember him saying and what a great teacher too he's like having the courage to stand up and speak his mind. That was pretty cool. You know we had. We had some good figures in our, in our, in our life. But I can't forget where I was going with that. That makes for a good podcast too. Old man forgets me If I talk some way his way into a corner. I don't remember when was I going with that one.
Speaker 1:Well, it's just a great compliment really. That's the bottom line, yeah that's the point. That's what it was all about Really good compliment.
Speaker 2:Oh, just taking it and making it work for you and leaving the parts that don't quite fit. But not everybody's constitutionally capable of that right. And it's hard when you're sitting in a deal where you're being told this is it, this is the playbook, these are the things you know and a whole deal and both you and I have in common in different, manifest differently, but our instinct is to push back on that and not be told what to do, not be ordered around right, both of us and and and you know I think that's an interesting thing when it has to do with our journey and where we come and why we're trying to look for and offer something for everybody is. You know it's hard and going to those meetings I was the also we did a basically a cisco and ebert kind of review thing where we would we talk about after. You know that's not something people on general time they don't but it made it fun for us. We changed the game a little bit. We made a little adventure out of it.
Speaker 2:When I first got sobered in trying to kind of tailor my own AA program to myself is, I realized that part of what is always drawn me to, whatever substance, is an idea of an altered state of consciousness and I don't believe that's inherently bad. But there are ways to get it that you don't need to be high or drunk and part of that is different experiences getting out of your thing. So I went to a couple of meetings like that. I did deliberately like in a pretty. I went to this famous. It was a Fremont biker meeting on Aurora Avenue nighttime meeting. That was an interesting crowd got propositioned by a prostitute on the way in. Then there was. I went to another nighttime meeting where people are getting into a fight and it's like but it was an adventure, right?
Speaker 1:you know. You know, let's. Let's talk about that a little bit, because we both share. You know aa and we're just I'll just call it out aa those the only requirement that people forget the desire to stop drinking.
Speaker 2:Right, that's, that's the only requirement, and you and I both that. So I think we're still in the club.
Speaker 1:So here's what's true for me. I think, maybe unlike you, or maybe the same as you, that small voice that I like to refer to would never, ever, admit the word alcohol ick. So that word doesn't have any meaning to me, because it's an evil word and it means a lot of things. No, not now, not now, but at the beginning. So the opportunity for curiosity of my condition was narrow and none, and so you know, if you go listen to one of my earlier podcasts where I talk about the final days and final months and stuff, I can share some of that.
Speaker 1:But once I found my way into AA and this is where I think there's a truism, almost maybe even a kind of rule, not rule, what's the word I want to use A pattern, being around people was super helpful. So it just so happened that AA was kind of the only game in town and there were things about it that I despised and in some degree still do, but the truth is is I could consistently sit down and be around people who drank like me and told stories that resonated with me that had problems like mine, especially when it came to drugs and alcohol, not always the same, different lifestyles and everything else, and I've come to believe over time that, in that, getting help and being around peers is I'm going to use the word critical.
Speaker 1:I think it's critical. I think that people that are sitting at home trying to do this on their own or like trying to muscle through it look, I did it, I know exactly about it, right, but once I got into those rooms and I will tell you right now, it wasn't a panacea and it certainly wasn't a like I wasn't ready to hug everybody, but it was the beginning of me getting comfortable and hearing things that I needed to hear. So so I'd love to propose that and let you knock that one around a little bit too. Do you agree with that concept that it's important to have community?
Speaker 2:Honestly, as a psychologist, I would consider that settled science at this point. Social support we are social creatures. It is profound for everything right. Having a social support network, having being with people who care, without question is healthy. Now there are people who are introverted, who need to also recharge their batteries and not be around people, but no for sure. I also think there's an added and extremely powerful level of support that when you're in a room with people of similar experiences that actually understand and you hear somebody especially I don't know about you, but somebody who looks way different, different life, different everything, and their story is exactly the same and the thoughts and the craziness that goes, and then it's like, okay, well, I may be crazy, but then all the rest of these people are too. At least we're crazy in the same way. Or maybe I'm not right. It's hugely powerful and absolutely so. I had, I was.
Speaker 2:I think the pumps were prime for me, though when I came in, because I knew that and I was wanting something to happen, I didn't want to choose getting a DUI, but then again, I don't know that I ever would have got sober without that or something worse. You know, nobody nobody generally comes gets into recovery, when on a winning streak and wakes up on a tuesday and my life's going so good, I think I'll quit drinking today. I mean it's probably happened, I don't know, I don't know. But it's also. We're all different, because I think that that where where our differences in our personality kind of come out and how we react to things like that, you have always been a person who has been vocal and strong and pushing back and standing up right, which Mr Schaefer appreciated much more than I do. But but honestly, that's, that's your nature and and and and many ways it's it's been profoundly helpful because you are a person, you're a strong person and you are like, maybe despising the stuff and I'm sitting in there going, I, I want to be the best at this and have everybody give me a gold star and get a good grade and be really, really good at AA.
Speaker 2:And then I started trying to figure out how I was going to make it better, which all, the, all the old timers really what's loved happening to you guys comes in with the good idea, barry. And now I'm going to change this meeting, and I remember there was this little bell I would ring when I was, I was the, the, the secretary, and this old timer guy. Oh, he hated it so much and I. It just disappeared one day. So so I and I wrote that for a while because I was also so desperate for answers and help and and my home group really was special it still is, but it really I did feel really good about it and the people in there.
Speaker 2:I had a good friend who was a little farther on me and he was the guy that got my call. That was the only person I knew. He's a psychiatrist, interestingly enough and he got the call for me and we went there together and I actually had a really, and I, without question, followed everything and and then, but I was always still waiting for the other shoe to drop because there's no way. There's not a gold membership, but where are you going to sell me? Or I got to go join your church, or you know it's got to be. Nobody just gets together to help.
Speaker 2:You know, and, and I can remember to this day, I was in a meeting and there was a matter of you know personalities before principles coming up and people getting an argument, and I remember thinking it was fairly early. I was like, oh, there it is and thinking now, now I've tried this and it also does not work, so I can probably just say I tried it and either try something else or go whatever. I didn't have it that well thought out, but I was pretty. And then a guy in the meeting stood up and he said hey, and he cut it off and it was really. You know, it was interesting.
Speaker 2:But and people though, I also remember a time and I shared something. A guy who no, a guy who came in at the same time I did shared a reading that was not AA approved, but he read something which you know I get. You can't. There needs to be guidelines and rules, because people left to their own devices are going to muck things up. But in my young sobriety it stung me because I felt like he was getting slapped down and I felt like he was trying, and I knew he was struggling and he was trying to do this thing. And somebody stood up and said this you know we really not do AA approved literature and that I felt I despised it, it was self-righteous, it was BS.
Speaker 2:And I sit up and say I got one last thing to say I don't care if you read the epic phone book as long as you're here to get silver, and then a pin, drop Right and I'm here and I'm a new guy too, but but you know, I struggle with those things as well. I struggle with those things as well, partly now for me just realizing that there is a certain amount of responsibility and potential danger with people who claim too much expertise where they're not experts and considering yourself one and you can look in the news for many examples of this you have to be careful with it, right, and I think you need to be humble, and people lose that carefulness and that humility, and I think you need to be humble and people lose that carefulness and that humility and then they start really becoming dictatorial and you know, and, and, and. That can be damaging, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll just say this as well. Well, let's, let's, let's parlay into this little topic. You know, helping others. You you alluded to this a little while ago that you know you'll get a phone call or you'll get somebody will come to you, you know. And when I got loud at Cisco, that's a big company, and so I got a lot of, I got a lot of private texts, and one of the things that I've come to believe over time is, if I stay in my story, I'm good, I'm good, like as soon as I drop the word, you should into the mix, or this is how it is, or whatever else it's, it's potentially dangerous. Yeah, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:I agree with you yeah and so and so this is you know, for, for those of you that are listening, that are in recovery and you know, you think about, you know wanting to help people, because here's the thing is, everybody in every meeting wants to help people. It's a rarity that you don't have across the board. It's just different ways of doing it, and the most good intentioned people can do things, including myself. I can look back on times when my advocacy and competence as far as providing some kind of support to somebody is less than stellar. But I just lean on this idea that if I stay in my story, if I tell you what happened for me, if I tell you what works for me, if I tell you what I've seen as patterns, I can't see how I can go wrong.
Speaker 2:Like no, that makes a great deal of sense. You know, and interestingly you know, being a psychologist by trade, I am constantly helping people and and in my work and I think not to sound arrogant, but I think I'm exceeding the good psychologist I really I have great faith in my ability and I feel like it's what I'm meant to do to help people Right. But even in that, where I am very confident in my expertise and my knowledge that I know what to do, how to help, that you know for them, I still do not generally tell people you should, because that's not where growth comes from. Right, I think it's important to what you know when everybody's coming in is something's wrong and their life is not how they want it to look like. Right and and how do you get there? And that's the experience, strength and hope which has always been my favorite part. Right and and for me, I would often I've always, except for my very earliest when I was really really hardcore and doing everything you know, getting that gold star. I've used AA like I'm the crappy friend you don't hear from me program for a while. Then I hit the skids and I don't mean relapse, because that, mercifully, has been a part of my story, but something other way of managing to step in it and make my life difficult or some pain or something and need the support. Right, and maybe it's because I'm feeling vulnerable to drinking, or maybe it's just going to need it and it's always there and I will.
Speaker 2:I would go in a lot and I would talk about you know. I will say, you know, if you're struggling, to keep struggling, cause that's part of it too. You know, I guess only tangentially related. But going back, you were saying about our, our youthful experiences and and I kind of harken back have positive thoughts about those times. Right, I absolutely have positive thoughts about those times and I don't think there's a darn thing wrong with that. We had, we, we had adventures and and and so many things tied to it that were beautiful and fun and joyous and and, and that's part of the story that there is a grief in, in when you say goodbye to you, to what you thought was your friend of John Barleycorn.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think that's something that people that I wish was talked about more, and that it's okay to feel that way and that doesn't mean you're going to then just go back out and do it. But it's okay to say, you know it's sad, I miss it, because if it didn't provide joy and relief and and and experiences that we want to have, well, why, why do we all get hooked on? It's not just biology, you know, and and that's an important aspect of it of it too, you know, and I think I think it's important for people to be able to, to express themselves and talk about stuff. But I also think you gotta, anytime you gotta, you have a, a group of people, you also gotta have some rules and regulations and thoughts or to keep things. Otherwise, you know, how do you keep somebody from talking for 47 minutes? Everybody else falls asleep or coming in drunk, or you know it's a, it's a balancing act. It's easy to sit in the cheap seats and and say, but there's also, it's like, well, it works too.
Speaker 1:So there's both sides of that coin well, I love what you, just what you just said. A minute ago I just had a conversation with a, with a new friend, about that very topic, about this he was. He was talking about this longing in this, in the sadness you know he's, he's, he hasn't been sober that long and you know we've, we've used language like, you know, our best friend, you know, and, and what I think a lot of people don't realize too, is if you're like me, where my entire life was built around it, everything was built around it, and it goes away. It's weird, yeah, and it's, and it's weird to be a human experiencing scary and there's, there's a grief there, and even years later, sometime, every once in a while, I'll look at something and I'll go. I miss that.
Speaker 1:Yeah of course you do. Yeah, so and so, yeah, that aspect of it, I think that there's there's there's true suffering occurring for the active addiction. But then there's a weird thing about that and I don't think that's ever come up on my podcast and I'm glad it did. Here is this idea that it's there's a sadness to say goodbye to that stuff.
Speaker 2:It's grief. I believe it's something that I, you know, I think about and I talk about because people don't talk about it, because they think the fear is I'm going to wax poetic and fondly and prime myself to stumble Right, which is a reasonable point point. But I think that's just another form of secrecy. If I'm sitting there feeling, thinking that and I feel like I can't say it because somebody else is going to think that, then that's just getting in my way of being able to. You know, I would never want to plant seeds for ill in anybody's head or be part of their downfall, but that's not my responsibility. You know, when you're sharing a thing and I think I've always found when you share something, when you allow yourself to be vulnerable in those meetings, inevitably people will come up afterwards. I'm so glad you said that Right A lot of times, and I do think there's an aspect of that, that's true, that doesn't get talked about.
Speaker 2:The people are afraid to talk about that. People are afraid to think and feel. But we can grieve something and really miss it and realize it's also horrible for us at the same time. That's how complex the human experience is and we can navigate those things. You know we can and it really is, because it is fun. So many things are tied up to it.
Speaker 2:And then you go through a period of what does my life look like now? Right, and I don't know about you, but I went through. There's a lot of things are just playing, that's not fun anymore and I ain't going to do it. And I don't know about you, but I went through. There's a lot of things that are just plain, that's not fun anymore and I ain't going to do it. And then some of it came back Not all of it did right, but like, and there were so many things tied to that. And then some things are harder than others, like, I don't know about you, but for me dancing is something I like, I enjoy dancing and once in a while, in the privacy of my own home, I will do it.
Speaker 2:But going out somewhere in public without a little liquid courage, it's harder to do it, you know. And then not there. That's just an example of it. You know lots of things and you know there is and there's a void that you have to fill right or you don't have to. And then there's also not only just the absence of stuff, there's also this cascading of things that you now have to deal with in the form of all these thoughts and feelings that I was able to, in stress and whatever else, navigate with just oh, I know what will help for this, you know. And now I don't know what will help for this, and this is scary, and this is uncomfortable, and this is hard. And am I the only person feeling this? And I think that's another reason why, when people share that they're struggling, they're having a hard time, you know, and in the meeting. But I know what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to go have a drink right now, but you know, but I sure am feeling miserable, yeah Well this has been a lovely conversation.
Speaker 1:My partner in crime from years ago, Kerry, thank you for coming on the podcast. We should do it again and I think we should try to do some away games again. I just had sort of revisiting that in my mind and heart. I those were fun.
Speaker 2:Those were fun because then we could go and bs about it and one time we even got fed breakfast, remember, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do, yeah, I actually really. That was. That was that.
Speaker 2:I really liked that one I did well, yeah, she was a really nice older lady. And then, uh, yeah, for for sure, and you know, for everybody whoever finds their way to this conversation, just we're just wanting you to find a place that's safe and that you're fervently believed in. That we both said we don't like or makes us mad or frustrated. Then good for you, Piss us off, do your thing, we're for you, you know I I don't mean to speak for you, Brett, but I think I do Right. I mean it's like the whole, we're all a team here, Cause this thing is horrible and and and it's bigger, it's stronger, it's smarter, it's faster than any one person. It just is like you were saying about people you don't beat the spreader, you just don't. I mean people here and there, but on average your odds are not good, and that's okay. It doesn't make you weak or dumb, it just makes you human.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thanks for the conversation, kerry, and thanks to all of you that are listening to my podcast. I appreciate the feedback when, when you send it along, you can do that at brettlovenscom if you want to. I I do read those those emails and comments um there. So next week, um, I get to go.
Speaker 1:I've been invited to go to a conference, a recovery friendly workplace conference, uh, just outside of dc. It's put on by SAMHSA, which is the big government entity, and uh, a lot of the people that I admire and that are pioneers in this space will be there. And I'm just, I'm just stoked to be in the room with these people and uh and learn um and network, and I may even put on a tie, which is terrifying to me'm just gonna be flat out about that. I have not worn a tie since ninth grade dinner dance. Um, and that pie that. That tie was uh knit and it was pink. So there's that um. But if, if, you are listening to this podcast and you're attending the samsa event in outside of dc, they're um awesome. Let's, if we aren't already connected, let's connect. So I'm into this, let's, let's keep. So I'm into this. Let's, let's keep helping change the world. Thanks, carrie. Thanks everyone for listening. Take care.