Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
The kind of conversations I would have wanted to hear when I was finding my way to sobriety. Conversations that can help remove shame and stigma and move people toward finding help. Substance Use Disorder (addiction) is treatable.
Addiction & Recovery Conversations with Brett Lovins
International Overdose Awareness Day (Aug 31st) - A Conversation with Megan Tweedy
When Megan Tweedy lost her brother Jeff Meyer to a fentanyl overdose, her world was turned upside down. Join us as Megan opens up about her journey from grief to advocacy, sharing her deeply personal story and the powerful message of International Overdose Awareness Day. She candidly discusses the emotional toll of losing a loved one to substance use disorder and the vital role that this day plays in honoring those who have been affected.
In this episode, we tackle the pervasive stigma surrounding opioid use disorder and the urgent need to treat addiction as a medical condition. Megan sheds light on the barriers to accessing life-saving treatments like buprenorphine and methadone, and the critical importance of harm reduction programs. We discuss the nuances of law enforcement and judicial challenges, emphasizing the necessity of shifting perspectives and regulations to support those battling addiction.
Moreover, we confront the contrasting societal views on alcohol versus opioids, examining cultural biases and their impact on public perception. Megan's heartfelt stories highlight the devastating effects of opioid addiction, emphasizing the need for Narcan and the power of visibility in fostering hope and catalyzing change. As we share recovery stories and advocate for awareness, our goal is to inspire collective action and cultivate a compassionate approach to the opioid crisis.
The People's Harm Reduction Alliance - Get free Naloxone (Narcan) in the State of Washington
International Overdose Awareness Day 2024 — for those we've lost - Article in the hometown newspaper, The Yakima Herald, written by Megan Tweedy
Odds of Dying - Risk of dying of an overdose from the National Safety Council
How to Administer Naloxone
Painkiller - Netflix series starring Matthew Broderick about the start of the opioid crisis in the US.
- Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
- Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce. From the Office of National Drug Control Policy, the Domestic Policy Council, and 12 federal departments and independent agencies.
- Latest (2022) Data on SUD in the US - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
- Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
- Brett's website: brettlovins.com
This is the day before International Overdose Awareness Day, which my dear friend Megan Tweedy will be talking about here shortly as a part of this conversation. Megan and I grew up in the same town and her brother, jeff Meyer, died of a fentanyl overdose a few years ago and she's become quite the activist and advocate for the disease model and for fentanyl awareness. And you know Narcan and there'll be a ton of links in the show notes. I hope you'll check them out. Yeah, so I was thinking that this podcast could be about. You know the importance of the day that's coming up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so International Overdose Awareness Day, i-o-a-d. I just now say Overdose Day because it's so long, so you know, it's the thing that I like about it it's out of the concept, grew out of Australia, australia, and so each community can really make of it what they will. And so no two overdose awareness days are really going to look alike. Although I've gone to Kittitas, ellensburgs every year, I'm not, this will be the first year I don't go, and there are go and there are similarities, for sure. But I like the kind of original wording and messaging that came out of the world's largest annual campaign to end overdose, remember, without stigma, those who have died, acknowledge the grief of the family and friends left behind. So I love that and I use that like our local overdose awareness day. Like I said, it's kind of messaging is morphed a bit more into featuring recovery, which I think, of course, is important.
Speaker 2:This will be my fourth time attending or speaking or having a role, and I have mixed feelings about it.
Speaker 2:I think it is not what I would like it to be in its purest form, which is really a place for grief, and I think part of that is we don't get a ton of people who show up in that role.
Speaker 2:We have a lot of community involvement, a lot of providers, certainly a handful of us who have lost a loved one to overdose. But I think I've never quite let go of what I thought it would be the first year I went and just this giant kind of place giant isn't the right word but this place to really mourn and grieve and acknowledge this horrific epidemic that we are all still living in. I think there are a lot of stories and stories of hope, which are obviously very important as well. I don't know, I think, and again I think, you get a lot of people who don't like we always have a politician who kind of kicks it off you know, I'm not sure that's always the best choice just because they're typically not very well versed in the world of substance use disorder. So anyways, that was a long-winded explanation of kind of what it is and what it means to me and, like anything, I just keep showing up and someday I'll formulate an opinion one way or another or not. I'd say I'm neutral on the event as it is.
Speaker 1:Well, we should do something here. We should take a second. So we make the assumption that everybody knows who you are because you've been on my podcast is the third time and the first time was at that first year, right?
Speaker 2:Was it yeah?
Speaker 1:Where you spoke. Yeah, so I would love it if we could pause, because there'll be people that listen to this podcast who've never met you before or don't know your story of grief, and not to put you in a pickle here. But I'd love it if you'd take a minute to introduce yourself, either again or for the first time, and why Overdose Awareness Day is meaningful to you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. My brother, jeff Meyer, died by fentanyl overdose February 24th 2020. And I think I started out as really just a devastated sister, bewildered by the world of substance use disorder, and really someone who's just grappling with the grief of how the hell did this happen? I remember I said that probably every day for a couple of years, like how does this happen? And I understand now how it happens the science, if you will, but the emotional part of it, you know, I'm not sure you ever understand.
Speaker 2:You have this just amazing, gregarious, sensitive, loving guy, a father, just a generous soul and just a good spirited person whom everyone loved, like he just was that person people gravitated towards and like how does he end up, you know, dead and alone for three days before he's even found? And I think, like telling that story is so important over and over, but I always fear people don't really want to. They do want to hear it. We're all drawn to the train wreck, but the part of connecting that story to you know how it really does happen and what we can do, there is still such a gap between the two, like it's easy to listen to someone's you know horrific story but then to walk away from it, impacted for more than a few minutes of like wow, this really is plague of sorts that our communities are facing, and I don't you know that that's a struggle for me, how I go from point A to point B, and what does that story even look like anymore?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, let's, let's, so, so. And I know I knew Jeff as well, right? So, for the audience that doesn't know, we went to high school together and so so it's a. In this case it touches you know, a wide circle of folks. My dear friend, your husband worked with with Jeff and, and, and I'm going to start to maybe insert this concept of stigma into the conversation, if that's okay with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because I think.
Speaker 1:I think that's the bridge towards the, the actual, actual solving, towards sword solving, or that's my proposal. I'd love to, I'd love to explore that with you a bit. But here's what I think is true for most folks, cause cause my podcast if they're regular listener on here. Most of the folks that I'm talking to are alcoholics or or you know, or drug, not not all, but most Right. And so that's, that's the lane I'm in, because that's my life experience, even though I would have been a perfect candidate had I been active when fentanyl entered the, entered the pardon, pardon the pun the bloodstream of America.
Speaker 1:It's not a pun, what is that?
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's kind of weird use of words there. But so this idea that I think most people have is they, you know, let's just say you walk around Seattle, you know, and you see people you know that are potentially in trouble with drugs, or maybe it's just, or maybe it's mental health, or maybe it's just, or maybe it's mental health, or maybe it's both. But they think that that is what what this disease is doing, right, that's where it shows up, and until it touches you, your family, directly, like it, like it has yours, megan, it's sort of it wasn't invisible to you, certainly, but this idea that Jeff was sick, that he was in a brain disease condition that he couldn't see, that it was hard for him to understand as well, moves us towards understanding that these are sick people and not bad people, towards understanding that these are sick people and not bad people, that we move from choice to let's get somebody help, just like you would diabetes or anything else. So I'd love for you to bounce off of that as makes sense to you.
Speaker 2:It's really good we're talking this morning, brad, because, as I reflect back to the first article I wrote, that was just very vulnerable and raw and I feel like there was an innocence to it, but yet such a clear understanding too of stigma, and I look back to in this article I'm referring to. As I wrote. It was really the first piece I wrote and it was for Overdose Awareness Day and published in our local newspaper, and so then I just wrote another one three years later and it was kind of meant to be you know what? What? What has changed? Who am I, even three years after? And it's so difficult to write because you only have 500 words and, as you know, there are a million lanes to this disease. To what lane are you even going to advocate for? And so, you know, stigma is still alive and well and I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think, of course, we've made progress. I just have to look at Narcan, the use of Narcan and how socially acceptable it is, and that's a win, for lack of a better word. Right there there, however, I spend most of my time being the minority voice in the room, and that aligns with you know what. The data shows that. I use the quote from Shatterproof, the nonprofit. Shatterproof, who I really think just do such a great job of their website, is just packed full of information and their data. 75% of Americans do not believe substance use disorder is a chronic medical condition. So that aligns with my experience of I'm the minority voice and we don't like to listen to each other. And I'll give you an example. I do a lot with local politics, and Yakima is a very conservative, rural community, and so our local politicians tend to be of that vein. And so, you know, yesterday, at a coalition meeting, it just started down that path of you know, we got to get these guys off the street.
Speaker 2:Just, you've heard it all, we've all heard it all a thousand times, and he's just talking and talking. We're all just sitting quietly listening and I always speak up. I do, and I try and tell my story, and he doesn't listen to a word I say and, quite frankly, I don't really listen to a word he says, and so this is a huge problem. And at the end, after I spoke and he didn't listen, he's like well, I just think really we're not close at all. He does not see addiction as a medical condition, he just doesn't. And so those conversations are kind of dead ends. And yet if you want to change something and 75% of the room is the potential for a dead-end conversation, it's no wonder you stopped listening.
Speaker 2:I was not in a good mood yesterday. I was not in a great place, I didn't want to listen to this guy. I had already heard him a week before at our city council passing. You know no drug zone area, which just further stigmatizes. You know people who are trying to seek treatment because they've enacted this. You know drug-free zone and of course, it's the area where all the treatment facilities I can't think of the word are.
Speaker 2:So it is, I don't know, but yet, like, had I not gone, had I not gone and had I not said my piece, it would have been a lost opportunity, but yet, does it make any difference? That is truly what I grapple with and what I'm grappling with again, like, does this make one bit of difference? And I don't know. I don't know, I don't. Today I would say no, because yesterday I walked out and it was more, it was less emotional, and that's the part that almost makes me sad. I don't get emotional anymore, I just get defeated and, and it is hard to keep picking yourself up and going back, and somehow I do. I got a great night's sleep and here I am talking to you.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, let's play with that one for a little bit. So what would you say is the main differentiator? So you just mentioned it, like I, I proposed that that substance use disorder, opioid use disorder, the addiction for those that are uncomfortable with those other words, let's just throw that in there so it's easier for some folks. What if you don't believe that that's a medical condition and it's simply a situation of choice? That's a huge barrier, right, huge. So what I'm hearing you say and I'd love to provoke you to talk more about this his proposal, this particular individual, and we'll just use him as sort of the yeah, yeah, he is.
Speaker 1:He's the reference point for most of these conversations that are happening. He's talking about incarceration as being absolutely yes he's talking about? Did he use negative terms like dirt bags or anything?
Speaker 2:right he was, he didn't do that, but it's. But that's such a great question, brett, or great point like you can't unhear, like maybe just someone else. That wasn't terribly stigmatizing his whole rant, for lack of better word, because he didn't use junkie dirtbag, so he thinks he's not being stigmatizing but it's equally as damaging so, so if, if you were.
Speaker 1:So I'm just trying to get toward up, I'm trying to find a bridge here and maybe this is the exercise. But let's just say, this person who's never heard this before, who's hearing this kind of stuff for the first time, and says, well, yeah, we, you know, I'm from the Reagan era. You know we, we will find you and put you in jail, right, you know we, we will find you and put you in jail. Right, and I'm just going to leave fentanyl off the table right now, because that that's a whole nother ball of wax. It's as a part of this conversation hasn't been around for very long.
Speaker 1:But what would you say? Or what? How do you? How do you? How do you? So you bring your story to that. So I'm guessing this guy says you know, the only, the only real solution is to incarcerate our way out of it. Right, no drugs, drug-free zones, worse penalties, three strikes or whatever terms you want to use. But basically we just need to level the penalties such that it helps them change their behavior or we get them off the streets where they're no longer a danger. Is that a fair summary? Yes, okay. So what do you say to that? I mean, I have no ideas, but I'd love to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 2:I know, right, what do you say to that? Because we're not remember, we're not listening to one another. So I could talk about a million things. Well, jail is more expensive. We don't have the, you know the in this particular issue wanting to create the stay out of drug areas. It puts all the onus on judges so they have to decide. If there's you know, pretrial conviction or conviction like okay, you cannot go into these areas, so already your judges have too much on their plates. Then then law enforcement. You know, if you really talk to law enforcement, they'll be like, yeah, I'm not doing that, like I'm just we're just out here. I would say 99% of law enforcement who I've met are just really good people who are trying to do what they signed up to do is to protect our community in one way, shape or another, and so they're gonna be like, yeah, I'm not doing that, so so it's, it's I. I'm trying to go back to your, your question.
Speaker 2:I think I would say the most important thing for ending stigma is that we all get to this place of acceptance that we're not going to save everyone. Not everyone wants treatment. Not everyone is going to be successful if you demand treatment and we just have to accept a lot of things about this situation. We have to accept that. You know, right now, people are working to stop the flow of drugs into our country. Some are going to get through. We have to accept that. The thing we don't have to accept, though, is in the case of opioid use disorder. We have these medications that people still don't even know about. That they'll say I don't know what that is buprenorphine and methadone that are really effective in treating opioid use disorder, and they're underutilized, mostly because of stigma, and so I remember hearing for the first time we have to make these medications as easy to get as the fentanyl itself, and I just thought that that's it, that's it. And so, again, when you are tackling such a huge issue, again, when you are tackling such a huge issue like, are you going to work on the criminal justice side? Are you going to stop the flow at the border? That's fine, that's your job, that's your prerogative, that's your deal, that's not mine.
Speaker 2:Mine is trying to get these medications on the streets, like through what we refer to as used to refer to as syringe service programs now harm reduction programs that you can go up and get Narcan. You can go up and get water. You can go up and get fentanyl test strips. Why can't you go up and be treated right then and there with methadone and buprenorphine? And I'm not going to go into why you can't. There's all sorts of regulations they're changing, but that is why the answer to that, why you can't, stigma. Most people don't even want syringe service programs. I mean, again, the majority, the majority if you go with the 75 statistic they view those systems as enabling. So what do you do? The answer is you just accept people are going to use drugs. Not everyone wants treatment, not everyone will be successful, but many do. So let's make it easier for them to access treatment. And that's again, you know, specific to opioid use disorder. Specific to opioid use disorder. So, yeah, did I answer your question?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love it. Let's, let's bring. Let's, let's bring some story into this. So I'd like to propose that that one of the main reasons that stigma still has so much sway is that that we we don't see these people as people. Right, we see this on t-shirts. More and more recovery is possible, right, this idea that somebody like me is able to work their way toward understanding their predicament, which is really the bottom line. And then what am I going to do about it? What support services do I need or what can I do to help myself? First off, you've got to get that information Right, and I'm going to, and I'm going to suggest here that I know many people who are in recovery, and people from opioids as well.
Speaker 1:So I have several people in my life that are, that are opioid heads. You know, and you know my suggestion to those that are listening, and maybe to the choir, because that's probably the audience that I have but, but, but not.
Speaker 1:You know, hopefully less you know, maybe not so much, maybe. I do know that I get listened to by a lot of people in corporate America that are unaware of this stuff, and that's really where I'm trying to to be. You know, cause, on the one hand, you, you, you don't think that your employees are coming to work at an it company jacked on on opioids, but guess what? Their kid might be going to school that way, or their kid might be in the hallway, you know, and so they may be, it's still very much overprescribed.
Speaker 2:I mean, there is still very much an opioid, pharmaceutical opioid issue in our country. We just talk about fentanyl more, which understandably. I'd rather we talk about fentanyl more because it's, you know, like people who work in this field say oh, what I'd give to go back to the days of heroin. I would say what I wouldn't give to go back to the days of prescription opioid being the drug on the street. But anyways, continue on. I interrupted.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's good. No, interruptions are welcome. Yes, so so this, this, we know that, elaine, I'm in, to use your, your words, you know. So it's so. If we say, if we take the, the, the corporate America employee, and we go back to the kid who's in that hallway, right, and their friend says, hey, I got some Percocets Right, here's the trick, right, and you and I know this rote, but many people who listen to this may not that Percocet may look like Percocet, maybe shaped like Percocet.
Speaker 1:You can hold it up next to another Percocet and say, ooh, and Percocet, by the way, is an opioid that is prescribed for pain very often, so they're fairly common post-surgery, et cetera. And you look at it and you think, well, that's Percocet. Well, guess what? Like? One of the things that's happening in mass is that drug dealers are are faking pills. So the pill looks like a Percocet, smells like a Percocet, you know it's colored like a Percocet, but they're they're putting fentanyl in it, because fentanyl is a very inexpensive high dosage opioid to put in there, and these people aren't scientists. And so suddenly you've got a kid who is overdosing from taking a pill that he or she thought was a Percocet.
Speaker 1:So if we want to backpedal a little bit and say, well, first off, it shouldn't be taking Percocet, right, right. So that's that's sort of the choice and it's valid at this point. It's valid right, and that's. Humans have been using drugs for a long time and most people that listen to this podcast go home and have their glass or two of wine and get jacked on the weekend.
Speaker 1:So this high and mighty thing, and there was a time when we tried prohibition here in the US and it didn't go so well and there was a black market that came around. I mean, there's examples in history that are tangible, they're not just symbolic or mind estimates. And so we're in a position now where we have a conundrum, in that we have this fentanyl out into the marketplace. Some are seeking it for its potency, for its high, getting high, so once again, it shouldn't be doing that. Well, okay, and then you take the person who's lost the choice, has lost any access to any willpower, because their brain has been hijacked. Now I'm starting to sound like a bit of a diatribe, but I think it's useful and you can correct me anytime along the way here, megan, but you know, my understanding of the brain disease, of any kind of addiction is really centered on this idea that it becomes the equivalent of life.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes and so now, all of a sudden, suddenly, this drug is equal importance to you know, food, water, and it needs. It's risen to that level and that was, you know, my experience as well. Doctor was talking about, you know, the brain disease of substance use disorder and he suggested everybody in the audience hold your breath and keep holding it for a while. And you can go for a while and you're kind of okay, and then pretty soon it becomes urgent to take a breath, right? And that's really the predicament that people that have crossed into you know, predicament that people that have crossed into you know disorder, opioid use disorder, substance use disorder where there's no choice anymore. I'm going to take a breath, and then you add shame and stigma. So now I'm shameful about it. I don't want anybody to know.
Speaker 1:So now I'm, in my case, hiding booze around the house, right, sneaking my drinks and carrying airline bottles in my socks everywhere I go. This is weird behavior, right. Who would do that? Well, guess what I did? Because it seemed an equivalent requirement for me to move about the world. So you got multiple things in play here and then you get somebody like me who gets sober, and now you're quiet for eight years because you don't want anybody to know that you're sober. What's wrong with that picture, right? So I just threw a lot at you there, but no?
Speaker 2:no, and I really appreciate that because you know it it again that this whole it's such a huge concept of stigma and sometimes and and I've asked you before I'm like sometimes I want to have a podcast about the difference between alcohol, the substance use disorder of alcohol, versus the substance use disorder of fentanyl, and how you know how different they are. But yet am I allowed to say that I'm not in recovery? But here's what I know. Here's what I know. Here's what I know With fentanyl now, the lifespan for when you need to use again. I'm talking about people like Jeff who, at the end of his disease, it's 20 minutes before you go into withdrawal. People don't understand that and they don't believe it. How is that possible? How is it? But it is possible. That is the drug and, of course, people don't believe it and don't understand it because fentanyl you know it was 2015 on the East Coast, 2017 on the West Coast. It is so new and I appreciate you giving the backstory because I forget.
Speaker 2:I went home after we found Jeff and Googled fentanyl Like I had no idea that what I would say. He died of an accidental fentanyl overdose. I assumed he inadvertently took what he thought, what you're referring to, as you know, a laced Percocet that he didn't know it was laced. No, he was addicted to fentanyl. He knew that, what he was doing, he absolutely knew what he was doing. And so that's so loaded right there. Because then you get the argument like why in the hell would someone keep doing a drug if they know it's going to kill them? And so I would propose excuse me, would know the potential is there to kill him. So I would propose the alternative to that story how powerful is that that a grown man who owns a business, who is successful, who has everything going for him, is consuming fentanyl several times a day? I had all his texts, I saw exactly what he was doing and you cannot believe it. But we must believe it. We must, just, like you said, we have to educate. Like just you doing the backstory, like I forget, I just assume.
Speaker 2:Well, everyone knows what Fenn Hall is and I only have so much time, I only have so many words. Like what part do I focus on? And I think that is really difficult right now for everyone. It is so chaotic, we are trying to figure it all out, but it's so new and it's so horrible and so so kind of to push that back to you brought. Like you know, I stigmatize sometimes in terms of like alcohol, like if you're in recovery from alcohol, and I hear this still, I heard it yesterday in the group. We in the coalition meeting, we have one guy in recovery who comes. He's in recovery from alcohol and what I want to say to him I can't because I don't know except for I saw it is you have no idea the the difference of your drugs. But is that fair? Is that furthering stigma? That's what I ask you.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, I lean on my story and in my case I was, I was a big fan of opioids, so so, and I and I share that at meetings and stuff too. You know, at certain meetings that I go to, it's supposed to be about alcohol or whatever I paint outside, I want people around me to know that I use cocaine, that I use you know opioids, so so. So I think that gives me at least a little bit more insight, but the concepts are still similar and the same in my mind, right.
Speaker 2:What about alcohol? Here's where I think the difference is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hit me.
Speaker 2:We hate hard. I'll put it in quotes we despise, hate hard drugs in this country and we accept alcohol. And I think that is really an issue. I think we've never looked. I mean, and again, like you said earlier, history bears out all the facts, you know. You look at what we refer to as the war, the war party, and we had a dinner party not long after Jeff died, or who knows how long it was, and there were several bottles of wine opened and it was so evident to me I'm like okay, what if Jeff had pulled up a chair, been at this dinner party which he would have, could have been very easily and been like hey, guys, okay, well, now it's time for me to use my fentanyl or even opioids.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's go back to opioids. Hey, it's time for me to take my opioids, illicit opioids. I'm not taking them for back pain, I'm just here taking my drugs. Can you imagine? Yeah, just not acceptable. And so I, but I struggle with this brat because I don't want to come at it from a place of stigma. But yet, if you can get people to also view and look at the history of how we have treated other drugs besides alcohol and I want to be clear like alcohol is horrible, like it kills more people in alcohol related illnesses than any drug. Like it's not a pretty one either, but it is socially acceptable and there is stigma. So both things are true. There's stigma for alcohol and there is stigma for illegal, illicit drugs. But it's again people forget. How did we get this fentanyl epidemic started? It didn't just come out of nowhere. It came from prescribed opioids. Anyway, it's hard not to go off on that soapbox.
Speaker 1:No, that's what we're here for.
Speaker 2:So what would you say about that? That argument of you know alcohol and stigma, and how we tell that story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have. So I come down on the on the side of that. People like altered states of consciousness, some more than others, right, like altered states of consciousness, some more than others, right, and there's a reasonable argument for somebody to say you know what Alcohol is fine in our society, we can have it and you know, most people can have their couple of drinks a night, you know, even get good and lit up, you know, over Christmas, and then they return to their lives. Right, and that was what was different for somebody like me. So, similarly, opioids, same thing I get, I get, I get access to some, I use them, loved it and so so. So this socially acceptable thing, I'm trying to come at it kind of directly, but indirectly too.
Speaker 1:So let's take this individual who said well, my alcohol is not a problem. First off, it may or may not be, because that's part of the brain diseases. Our sense of reality goes sideways. But similarly, we have a ton of evidence to point at what you just shared. When we flooded our society with opioids fairly recently and there's a million sources of information I'll slam some in the show notes if you don't know that story that's still going on that many people got very sick and very, very over their skis with opioid use disorder that were otherwise fine, upstanding members of society, from a knee surgery, from back pain, etc. And so at that point in time, as a society, we said, well, that's okay, because it's not. So at that point in time, as a society, we said, well, that's OK, because it's not.
Speaker 1:You know, there was, there was some nefarious marketing going on about the, the, the, how, how, how dangerous it was, how addictive it was. It was really terrible. And there's amazing movies I'll put a couple in the show notes as well that I've watched so that you can see it play out in front of you. Can see it play out in front of you. But the point is, is that people that you wouldn't think of as being addicts, that weren't experimental, like me, became addicts, right, and then enter fentanyl into the scene, where now it's not getting heroin to save yourself the pain of withdrawals Because you mentioned that a minute ago and they call it dope sick folks, people that I know that have been dope sick.
Speaker 1:It is ugly, it is bad and so so, yeah, so socially socially acceptable to have alcohol, not socially acceptable to have opioids. But I would argue that to you that in my circles it was like for us to say, hey, you know, we're having a party tonight, somebody breaks out a. You know that would have been acceptable yeah, and maybe you're right that was under the radar.
Speaker 1:You're right, and maybe that would have been the case yeah, for your mom and dad you know the wine on the table is fine and you know if the kids are going to go have shots at the bar, that's fine too, and he shouldn't drive tonight and all that, but quietly. There might be cocaine, there might be opioids, and there are some that are comfortable with it and many that aren't. And I'm going to share with this group that if you're totally uncomfortable with that, I can guarantee you that you've been in a place where that is going on Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And in some cases people can do that and do it in a responsible way and have a good time with it and enjoy the experience. But it is dangerous because a lot of us can't or we find our way into.
Speaker 1:We can't anymore, and it's now. We've driven ourselves into a box canyon and there's no freaking way out, and now is when we need some signposts, now is when we need a helicopter to come in, and the only way you're going to do that is if people are more aware of it and see those people as human beings that are deserving of an opportunity to get well, that are called ill as opposed to bad people and given access to the resources that are available, not like they should be, because, to your point, jails are expensive. So now I'm soapboxing. How about that?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I would say in summary, you know, three years later, there's been great things. Narcan's huge. I mean you, just how many lives have we saved because of Narcan? How many? That's what's going to be the next interesting set of data, like how many would be dead without Narcan. How many? That's what's going to be the next interesting set of data, like how many would be dead without Narcan, or looking at how many are a lot because of Narcan.
Speaker 2:So, like you know, when I take a step back, yes, differences are being made. It's too slow. It's too slow for me and that's the dilemma, you know, because stigma, because because the stigma, but stigma against snark can change. So I think it will change. But there is something that propels me forward. So I must think that deep inside, I must believe, no, we'll get there. And and talking about it's good, about it's good, this has just been really good because it reminds me of we are making progress.
Speaker 2:I just feel defeated so much of the time, and part of that is just like I started out saying at the beginning of the podcast it's hard to be the minority voice in the room and to leave and to think, okay, am I the nutty one, like maybe I'm the one who has this wrong, maybe I'm in that need for validation, like how I struggle with the need for validation, Like, nope, you're not wrong. And the struggle of does the loudest voice always win? Because that's the thing I struggle with a lot. Because, certainly in my circles, in terms of, like, what I'm trying to do as a community activist, what I'm trying to do as a community activist, yeah, the loudest voice always wins because they're the elected officials and they get to say what they want and that's just the way it's going to be. And so I think again, kind of that idea of acceptance of I have to do my part too, terms of stigma, of radical acceptance yeah, that's, you are going to be the voice that is is quieter, and that's just the way it goes, doesn't mean that you shouldn't speak out and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't know, we could talk about this for hours, but it's good to talk about and I do think in three years things have changed. I have to remember that. You know we still way too many people are dying and hopefully that will change too. But yeah, so I guess it comes back to you also have to have hope. That's it. You have to have hope. I have to have hope. That's it.
Speaker 1:You have to have hope I have to have hope, or else what am I doing? Yeah, hope is key. One thing the latest government estimate is there's about 22, 23, maybe even 24 million people in recovery in the US. If all of those people came out of the shadows tomorrow and said, hey, I'm in recovery, all of those people came out of the shadows tomorrow and said, hey, I'm in recovery.
Speaker 2:I used to be, you know, passed out drunk or jacked, you know, or I put myself in dangerous situations. We changed this overnight, so that's 24 million in recovery.
Speaker 1:It's about 6% of the US population.
Speaker 2:So if you're in a room, yeah, I think that's just such a powerful message. Yeah, and that speaks to why Overdose Awareness Day, why it is important to get those voices of recovery out there and get that. And we cannot forget those who've died. So, like most things in life, it can be both and that's what I have to accept about Overdose Awareness Day that it is both. It is stories of recovery and it is stories of death. Validated for me why it's important because we need of those 24 million, we need hundreds of them at overdose awareness day talking about it and we need hundreds talking about their loved ones who've died, because that's how we don't forget and that that's important.
Speaker 1:So let's, let's end on the Narcan positive note, because you know I was. I got to hang. I don't think he'll mind me using his name in this. If he does, I'll, I'll check with him first, but my friend Brian Hughes, he was. I went to one of his webinars the other day for and it was really great and it was on opioids what?
Speaker 2:Yeah On root cause analysis and it was really cool, so I'll send you the recording.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, brian and I grew up together and we, you know he was also a friend of Jeff's and anyway, he shared a story during the call about a friend of his. He didn't name them, but you know, gen Xer was at a party, fully engaged in life not somebody you know that you think of as the typical addict or whatever. You know whatever word you want to use at a party and the scenario I just proposed to you happened. They were offered you know a prescription, opioid or two, and they said yeah, heck, yeah, and so they took it and it had fentanyl in it and somebody at the party had Narcan and he probably wouldn't be alive. So that's a story that I'll check with Brian and I want to share more, because this idea that it's not just the people that need it that are already addicted to fentanyl, but it's also people that don't know that they're basically being poisoned with fentanyl.
Speaker 2:That's still out there.
Speaker 1:And so let's just mention to folks that don't know what Narcan is, don't know what Naloxone is right, that there's this magic spray that can bring people back from an overdose like right now and gives them another shot at finding their way to health. So speak about, because I know you even give presentations on how to deliver it and all that stuff, megan, so a lot of people won't know about this. So take a second.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what I'll say is Brad is again. I'm so glad to bring this up because I just kind of realized, wow, I don't really hear any more negative pushback about Narcan in the community Like there was, and I there was a time I was speaking out about it because there was a big pushback against Narcan vending machines because those are enabling and and that that rhetoric that's, that's not really accepted anymore in our community. I don't you know if people believe that they don't say it anymore because it's just too. You hear too many stories like the one you just shared and so, yeah, but Narcan, yeah, it's just, you can get it for free. I'll send you the link so you can embed that in your podcast through People's Harm Reduction out of Seattle, if you live in Washington State, they will mail it to you and it restores breathing.
Speaker 2:So an overdose phenol overdose, opioid overdose, too much of a drug and it suppresses the respiratory system. Narcan just wakes up the respiratory system and so you know. Again, I'll share the story because people are also under the false assumption that okay, well, if someone was resuscitated from Narcan, then they're going to go immediately to get help and treatment. No, they, law enforcement first responders will tell you they're, they're resuscitating the same people in the same week or month. I mean that again is how powerful the drug is.
Speaker 2:But you cannot treat dead people and sayings they are powerful. You cannot treat a dead person and so we keep them alive and we hope that, you know, the first time does the trick. The second time, third time, fourth time, fifth time, sixth time, what do we care? What do we care? We, if it's your son, daughter, brother, cousin, you'd want them kept alive. And so we don't, we just, we just keep them alive and hope and hope that that is the instigator to seek treatment and, more importantly, that treatment is available right then and there, otherwise withdrawal is just too miserable and you're going to go use again. So, yeah, that's what I'd say about narcan it's huge, we've made huge strides, huge strides corporate america.
Speaker 1:For those that are listening in, how about putting narcan in every one of your first aid?
Speaker 2:kits.
Speaker 1:Yes. Corporate building, yes, the idea that maybe you're helping somebody on the floor, but maybe you're just driving awareness, because those same people can go and buy it for free or not. Or they can get it for free or just go buy it at Rite Aid, put it in their car. So when they see something happen, they give that person another shot. And I'll say this too to sort of push back against the argument Well, they're just going to redo it. You know, I heard something said the other day on a call that I really liked. Somebody said yeah, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, Right. And then somebody came back with yeah, but you can leave the water there and you can make sure that water is there all the time, right because recovery is possible.
Speaker 1:People do find their way after getting, you know, really rough circumstances. Having Narcan around when Jeff was alive would have been amazing. Right who knows.
Speaker 2:Right who knows who knows, who knows?
Speaker 1:yeah, so so I you know we became friends over time. Megan, I love our chats we do, we do. You keep me motivated so proud of the work that that you do, and and and I'll put lots of links in the show notes, including a link to the, the newspaper article that you wrote about, jeff, on International Overdose Awareness Day, which is we haven't even said it, it's the 31st, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's the 31st Yep and it's celebrated all different days. We're celebrating it the 30th in Yakima. So yeah, yeah. And I'll give you the link for the free Narcan too, for Washington state yeah.
Speaker 1:Good.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, thank you for keeping me hopeful and motivated. I needed it this morning. Same Same, all right. Good to see you, brett. Okay, bye.