Karen Duggan - Former Colleague at Cisco - Two People in Recovery Talking About Recovery Friendly Workplaces (RFW)

Karen Duggan, a friend and former co-worker from Cisco Systems, joins me to share some of her journey of achieving and maintaining sobriety. Together, we explore the impact of finding solidarity with another sober colleague in a large corporation, and how important this connection has been for Brett.  In Recovery Friendly Workplaces, this will become commonplace.

Creating Recovery Friendly Workplace environments is no easy task, especially when considering diverse cultural contexts and the unique challenges of international corporations like Cisco where we worked together. Karen and I dive into practical strategies, such as framing abstinence from alcohol as an "allergy," to navigate social situations.

Inclusivity is key to fostering belonging in the workplace. From offering non-alcoholic options at events to small acts of consideration can make a big difference. Through personal anecdotes, including a mishap with accidentally drinking Scotch, we emphasize the importance of vigilance and support in maintaining sobriety. By sharing our journeys and encouraging open discussions of personal challenges and observations, we aim to create a more human and understanding work environment that supports everyone.

Links from the session:
Recovery Friendly Workplace Institute
Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit
brettlovins.com

• Washington Recovery Alliance - building the capacity of the recovery community to advance substance use recovery and mental health wellness by catalyzing public understanding and shaping public policy in Washington State.
• Recovery-Ready Workplace Toolkit - providing information, tools, and resources to help employers from all sectors—government, for-profit, non-profit, and not-for-profit—effectively prevent and respond to substance misuse in the workforce. From the Office of National Drug Control Policy, the Domestic Policy Council, and 12 federal departments and independent agencies.
• Latest (2022) Data on SUD in the US - from SAMHSA (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration). Link to my favorite PDF for statistics.
• Addiction 101 - it’s not a moral failing—it’s a treatable illness. Get the facts about this misunderstood medical condition from my friends at Shatterproof.
• Brett's website: brettlovins.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:12

Welcome to my podcast. My name is Brett Levens. Today I'm going to bring you my former co-worker. Some of you may know I'm no longer working at Cisco Systems and I'm actually starting to move towards a potential career pivot into recovery-friendly workplaces, which I've been doing at Cisco for the last three years. Before me and 5,000 of my other fellow employees were asked to leave and it was tough to leave the recovery-friendly workplace stuff behind. That's a body of work that I'm just thrilled is continuing in a robust fashion. I'm still in contact with people that are continuing that work forward and it's all about the people that it helps, so it's awesome.

Speaker 1: 0:58

Anyway, this is Karen Dugan and she is the first person that I knew at Cisco that was also sober, and that was an important moment for me to notice that I wasn't the only person in sobriety at this large company. Yeah, it was a big deal and you know it wasn't like we talked all the time about it or anything, but once I knew that, just knowing that there was another person that was sober and watching out for themselves, it was a big deal, so I don't know how else to say it. So she and I have been friends for a long time we did some work together with team building. She mentored me for some team building stuff inside Cisco and I'm just a big fan of Karen. So let's get this conversation rolling All right. What a treat, karen.

Speaker 1: 1:48

So you know this, but my audience doesn't know this. So you know my experience as being a sober person at a large corporation. That's where you and I met and worked together and I was not ready to tell anybody. It was a secretive, shameful thing that I carried and was protective of as I went along. My sobriety was solid, but being out there with it and I don't remember specifically when it was, but I remember the conversation that you let it drop, that you were sober. So I'm going to tee you up like that. I'd love for you to introduce yourself to my listening audience, who you are, how we kind of know each other, whatever feels right, but then I'd love to get to that conversation and I want to drill into that as we go, if that sounds cool to you.

Speaker 2: 2:37

That sounds great. Yeah, thanks for having me. We've been talking about doing this for quite some time, so I'm really happy we finally made it happen. I'm Karen. I am an alcoholic. I have been for many, many years and I've been in recovery for quite a number of years too. So this September, which is about four months away, I will be celebrating 29 years of sobriety. So I've been.

Speaker 2: 3:04

I, over time, have learned to be pretty open about my recovery. I I don't share it. I don't wear it like on my sleeve, like it's not the first thing you'll learn about me, but I also don't hide it at all. So I was super happy. I think the way that conversation went, if I remember correctly, is you used some kind of a phrase that I recognized as 12-step and I was like, oh hey, yeah, me too, and I'll be.

Speaker 2: 3:35

I'll just say that when I first got sober well, maybe not the first time, but when I got sober and stayed, stopped drinking I was in a workplace where they knew me intimately.

Speaker 2: 3:58

It was a smaller workplace, it was a restaurant company, and I used to drink a lot with my colleagues, with my bosses, you know, with people that were supposed to look up to me, and and so when I got sober it was, it was quite noticeable and I feel very fortunate that my boss at that time, a restaurateur saw I'm a restaurateur saw understood the need and I got to go to meetings at lunchtime every day. And you know, take that little extra time that it took to get to the meeting and get back to the office and that went on for about a year and a half where I was doing three lunchtime meetings a day with that extra time until he finally said you know, some people are feeling a little bit like there's some inequity in how you're able to do that every day, so can you figure out a different meeting schedule? But that was amazing, that you know, for in my first couple of years to have that support and in sobriety in the workplace was amazing.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a great start. So I'd love to just mention to my audience and see if I paint this picture accurately to you so the reason that Karen and I know each other as well, besides working in the same company and in that conversation where you, we probably did I probably said something and you're like, hang on a second. I heard a little language there that I zeroed in on. So Karen has you've been a team coach for a long time and you're one of the best what do you call it container builder that I've ever had the opportunity to observe.

Speaker 1: 5:47

And I think that it's safe to say that people that do that well have a high empathy quotient if you will able to feel and read the room well and make space and try to make safety occur. So I had the privilege of watching you work and learning from you when I was mentoring with you for that power of teams at Cisco. So with that predisposition assuming that you brought it with you as a before and after you got sober how do you think that it is because you're sober in that line of work? Do you look at that First off, if I painted that picture the way you would find it accurate if that's true, or fine tune it, but how do you feel about that type of sensitivity and, being sober, how it would influence your work, if you will? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:43

I mean, it is so spot on that it's like a direct result of coming into that work in recovery. So that line of work appeared for me about 12, 13 years ago when I was doing a thing I was pretty you know, pretty far in halfway into my sobriety. So far, right At least, I was selling a behavioral assessment and going into organizations and doing trainings around that, so helping people gain self-awareness, awareness of other, and then how that interaction might affect their working together and how they could work better together. So, first of all, just the fact that I was like super interested in understanding more about myself right on a deeper level who am I, how do I operate in the world Absolutely came from the training I have through the steps right, Doing inventory, getting to know myself, getting to, you know, to self-acceptance, right and understanding more. And so and I just I understood that to be like a really powerful way to be in the world and if I could bring it into a workplace, I was like, wow, that's amazing. And so from there someone said to me, wow, that's amazing. And so from there someone said to me, oh, you should look into OD. And I'm like what's OD and organization development?

Speaker 2: 8:11

And so then I go look at organization development and I go, whoa, you know, just mind blowing when I looked at it's all about human potential and connecting that to you know, organizational results, which I always find really fascinating, and how do you get there and how do you sustain it and all of that.

Speaker 2: 8:33

So, but when I looked at it and I started to go deeper into you know, how did they get there? Like it was like everything clicked and I thought, oh, all this work I've done, all this digging in and inventory and personal development, and you know it starts to make sense now, right, and this is the work I want to do. And so, because I was not young and not early in my career, I was like, oh, I need to go fast track my way to do this work for the rest of my career. And so I went to get a master's degree in organization development. And I'll just tell you, brett, like coming into that as a sober person was pretty remarkable too, because there's a foundational piece of it where they say self is instrument and so you have to be a clear channel. And you know 100% if I had tried that, as you know, when I was still in my cups, as they say. There's no way there was no clarity there.

Speaker 2: 9:38

There was no clear channel there, it was all noise. It was all noise. And so you know what you witnessed of me being a container. I learned in the rooms of AA, right, I learned in 12-step rooms like how to sit and just listen and actively listen and not interject and not try to control the conversation and where are we going, but just really, like you said, just create space, you know, hold space. And I say that in AA meetings. I still go to meetings and I do a couple of 12-step programs, you know, kind of primary. I'll tell people I'm like I get to sit in a room with people and basically do what we do here, but, like you know, out in the wild, not recovery related, but let people be themselves and let them, you know, express vulnerability and help them feel okay about it. And it has remarkable results in the workplace, right, when people understand each other as human and fallible and vulnerable and it's all okay.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Yeah, yeah, your answer to that doesn't surprise me, and it's also. It also makes me think that I'm on the. That that's accurate Meaning. What I mean by that is, I think, somebody in, I think people in recovery can be, and often are for lack of a better way to say and it tuned up, I think. I think it's in some ways a result of what you just described, at least in my case, in your case, we spent years actively listening, like practicing listening, and that in and of itself, is a not as common trait in the world. It seems there's a lot of talkers and not a lot of listeners, and when I've seen you do your work, it's clear that you're comfortable listening, and I've often thought, once I knew you were sober, I was like well, this is also a function of Karen being a sober person, of which I am too, and there's a whole connection of sober people have with each other. That was meaningful to me as well.

Speaker 2: 11:52

So anything you want to add to any of that, yeah, I mean it's funny because, as you say it, the other thing that I will bring into rooms when I sit with teams is one of my superpowers is I can manage awkward silence with the best of them, right. So a lot of people can't handle that and again, I attribute that to like sitting in a meeting and no one's saying anything like okay, someone, someone will pop when they're ready, right, and like just knowing that, and so. So I think that's kind of funny and I'll, I'll, I'll call it out Like it'll be quiet and you start to feel that energy rise where people are getting uncomfortable, and I'll just say, hey, it's, you know, awkward silence is one of my superpowers. I can wait, you know, and people will laugh and then someone will go. All right, I'll go.

Speaker 1: 12:44

And I've heard you do that. It's.

Speaker 1: 12:46

I've stolen that from Jared, and even saying it out loud, I you know that awkward silence is my superpower, first off, there's a humorous thing that engenders with everybody an instant blast of safety and we're okay, and it also empowers me to, am I? I just said that now, now, just cool off, yeah, yeah, wonderful. Well, in the workplace you have, literally and I, you know, I would, I'd be guessing I know you've been doing full-time team building and coaching for at at the company we work for, worked for.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Yes, in the past tense.

Speaker 1: 13:27

Through that lens you've seen and heard a lot of things. You know. You've seen lots of tears. You've probably seen some pretty good fights and I guess you can play around with any of that. But the one that I'm the most curious about is because I'm very interested and active in this idea of recovery-friendly workplaces. You know, earlier you said you don't wear it on your sleeve but you're not quiet about it. I'm just curious how often people would approach you at Cisco and ask you and want to get curious, potentially about themselves or family members. Did that happen much for you in your you know that's a really interesting question.

Speaker 2: 14:12

Like I said, like I don't wear it on my sleeve If people ask, I'm very comfortable talking about it. What I would have happened sometimes is that someone. So for people that don't know what this team building thing is about, is that one of the segments that we do if we're doing like kind of an extended session with people is we have a trust session where we ask people to share about who they are as human beings, so like what's going on for them, how are they doing inside and outside of work, and so a lot of people end up sharing, you know, really personal stories and, because it is often feels like a very safe container, like things will come out about things that are troubling them in their personal lives, and so I will say it had deaf. It does definitely happen that people will talk about more often than not, it's more about a family member than about themselves, that they'll talk about someone who's use you know substance use is has been problematic and that they're dealing with it in some way. So they're either the person is getting as, maybe in a recovery situation or, like you know, it has gone into treatment center, or they've come out of it and they're doing, they're doing better Right. So they might be talking about you know we're we're kind of on the other side of it. They might be talking about you know we're kind of on the other side of it. So they will talk about it in the group setting and I will not typically bring myself into that story in the moment in the team because it's not about me. But I will reach out to them afterwards on a one-to-one and say, hey, you know this is part of who I am. If you ever need to or would like to talk or anything, you know I'm available to you. So that has happened periodically over the years.

Speaker 2: 16:13

I did have people talk about I was drinking too much. I needed to. You know I'm now not drinking, so they would talk about that. And that happened probably more in and around COVID than at other times where people were talking about because one of the questions we would ask is like what's it like for you at work, at home? And you know internally for yourself, and so you know sometimes that would come out.

Speaker 2: 16:44

So so again, because I don't usually insert myself and my personal story into that sharing, I would generally reach out to someone afterwards and be like hey, I gotcha. You know, I know, I understand what you were sharing about, but it wasn't really until the work that you did to create that safe space of you know, that community. That's where I started to see that being broadcast a little more, a little more with that focus, although, were you in that safe space? Yeah, yeah, sometimes I would see that in there too. Again, generally more about people that had family members and that they were having challenges because of a family member and it was affecting their own mental health. Right, I would see people share about that, more so than like oh my gosh, I've been blacking out and I need to stop. Oh my gosh, I've like I've been blacking out and I need to stop.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Well, let's, let's, let's spin it up then a little bit. So for your, for your trainings, I believe it's true that you did quite a few of those in person.

Speaker 2: 17:52

Yes, yeah. And I don't know if you've heard.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah, before the pandemic it was a lot in person mostly, and were those all in San Jose, or did you travel as well?

Speaker 2: 18:02

Oh, it was global, like all over the world. Yeah, and that's kind of interesting because, like when you're trapped, when you're in person, you do tend to go out to dinners and things like that, and in the United States much easier to decline a drink and not have to go into any story about it than in other countries. In other countries it's a little bit tricky, you know, sometimes, because sometimes it can feel like you're being disrespectful if you don't accept what's being offered to you. I just had to you know, I learned this in early sobriety to just say I have an allergy to alcohol, which is 100% true. Right, but most people won't press you if you say you have an allergy, because they're going to ask you to make yourself sick.

Speaker 1: 18:54

You nailed it. That's where I wanted to lead you toward, and in some situations, or how often, did it occur that people would pressure you, that would press you in spite of how you would reply. What was your experience around that?

Speaker 2: 19:10

I honestly can't think of anyone that ever pressured me after I said I had an allergy to alcohol Before it, if I hadn't used that phrase, if I had just said no thanks, I'm good. That type of thing they, you know they might be. Oh, this wine is delicious, like you shouldn't miss it. You know, really, you don't know what you're missing.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Oh, you don't know what you're missing, like if I drink that we are all grateful that I'm not drinking right now. Right Like. But I typically wouldn't say things like that. I might with colleagues, you know, that were like if we were at a training and it was all people that I work with, not that I'm, you know, in service of right. There's a difference there if it's a client versus a colleague, but it I can't.

Speaker 2: 19:59

I really can't think of a time where I, where I invoked the allergy that someone pressed. After that I would have people get curious how did you learn that? How long ago, oh so, did you used to drink? How did that happen? What was that like? So when people show up that curious, I tend to then start to give a little more detail. Oh, what having an allergy with alcohol ends up looking like is I black out? I don't remember what has happened and it's dangerous. So if they continue asking, I'll say more, right, but sometimes I would ask like oh, is there a reason you're curious? Sometimes I would ask like oh, is there a reason you're curious? And again it mostly tended to be people were more willing to talk about other people than themselves. Oh, my kid, you know, my kid drinks a lot. I'm worried about them. But people do find it fascinating when they learn you don't drink. Fascinating, you know.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Yeah, they certainly can. How about so just again in the work setting, whether it's with a group that you've just spent some time with doing classes and team building, or whether it's with your peers? Yeah, how are you with being around people that are drinking heavily?

Speaker 2: 21:22

I am okay with it to a point. So I generally, you know, because I got sober while working in the restaurant industry, it was baked in right to my surrounding, like I, I didn't. I stayed at that job until for my first three years at least. For maybe four years of sobriety, I was continued to work in the restaurant industry and and so it was just right there. Now I was dating a chef at the time when I first got sober, and that did not last long at all. Like that was really hard. I, I did.

Speaker 2: 22:02

I wasn't able at that time to to stay in relationship with a heavy drinker, but but I was able to be around drinking and and so I think because of that, from that early stage of sobriety, I've always been able to be around drinking without much challenge. And but I, like I, have a limit. Like when it starts to feel sloppy or loud or that repetitive thing that happens, where people start telling you the same thing, you know, over and over, I just excuse myself, like I don't stick around. When it starts to feel uncomfortable and if I, if I feel like people are going to, you know, give me a hard time for wanting to do that, I might. What do they call that? The Irish goodbye or something where you just like slip away. You know, see, in the morning I'll tell a person or two so they don't worry about me, but then just get out of there and I never, you know, no one ever like chased me down.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Yeah Well, so I'll just add to that you use the word uncomfortable and you know, at least for me, it's not a longing or a jealousy, it certainly isn't, it's, it's just. For me it's similar I don't really have the right words to describe it. When I'm up close and can't escape heavy drinking, when people are getting really slop, it's been a little while. It's been a few years since I've tested it the last time it happened, I realized, well, this isn't for me. And you know I'll tell on myself for a second here. I am that person that would have probably encouraged people. You know, wine is so tasty or whatever it is. I've sat in that spot and so I wish I could go back and redo some of that. But I think it's actually kind of part of why I think I can be more helpful in some ways, because I've been that person.

Speaker 1: 24:00

Yeah Right, and you know, at least in my case it was bad, it was already terrible, and that was just me wanting people to be with me in that effort of getting way too sloshed. I think it's true and I'd love your thoughts on this. I think it's true that people including Brett as a younger age, encouraging people to drink or whatever being confronted with I have an allergy would have been an interesting one earlier on To me. I don't think I ever encountered that one, but people would say no for whatever reason, and I could particularly press them. But I also think it's true that I'm not a bad person and I really think in some ways I thought that I was doing them a favor by helping them get to the good stuff.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Yeah, and I think that there's a lot of people that are just are unaware of what's going on, because it is such a shame and stigma thing, and I think in particularly in the workplace, people like you and me. You know your colleagues knew, so they, you know, they knew not to press you or whatever, but I really think that those people that are doing that kind of stuff, if they knew more, they would be less likely to do it. In fact, they would probably be the first to say all the heavy drinkers were going that way. You know, and not be pushy and not make a scene. Do you think that's true? Or do you think that some people, do you think that more knowledge is going to help people to not do those kinds of behaviors that put people like us in a very dangerous situation. Do you think that's true or any truth in it?

Speaker 2: 25:36

I think there's truth in it and I think it depends If I think about myself. When I was in my you know heyday, I just wanted everyone. I didn't want to be alone in my drinking. I didn't want to feel like you know, I thought everyone was drinking as I was.

Speaker 2: 25:59

I was shocked when I stopped drinking and I realized, like wait a minute like, not everyone around this table is getting drunk off their ass, like I thought we were all in it together and so that's that's how I thought about it. But trust me, like if I was, if I was high and you know, on on the alcohol generally, like that was my.

Speaker 2: 26:22

You know, my drug of choice is really the alcohol, although you know I would mix other things, but generally I would just be drinking. Even if you said to me no, I would have still been like, come on, like a hundred percent. So education for me at that time probably wouldn't have helped.

Speaker 2: 26:44

Because I'm in disconnect, I'm going to black out, I'm not going to remember what I said anyway, so I'm probably like the you know, the neural pathways aren't like all lining up in those moments, Right? So I don't know that it would have done a lot for me as a alcoholic drinker to know now, for other people who are not alcoholic drinkers, 100 percent I think the education would help. Where the you know, the leader who's just trying to, you know, provide a nice time for people, Right, Is it's oh no, we've, you know, we've created this special experience and part of it is the wine pairing with the expensive dinner or whatever. You know that they, the education for them would be helpful. But for the alcoholic who's just trying to find a drinking buddy, probably not.

Speaker 1: 27:37

Yeah, yeah, especially if I go back in time, I guess maybe a better way to to advocate this concept too, or certainly you're right, like in my heyday, or whatever concept too, or certainly you're right like in my heyday or whatever. But part of my part of the problem that I see growing up you know, I grew up in basically the 80s, you know just say no, and all that stuff was going on and there was a moral equivalent involved. There was I'm a, you know you were being sneaky and you were being rebellious and there was some truth to that right as well, which I kind of loved in a lot of ways. But I was so resistant to know anything about it. Even in high school, when there would be a few people that would go to rehab, we laughed about it, you know. We'd say things like they don't even drink that much, what the heck is going on like, and then we and so I was so resistant to learning anything about it.

Speaker 1: 28:32

But I don't think I'm a bad person and I and I think I've, you know, I think I'm naturally empathetic and and a caring person and I just I got this belief, this thing going karen, that the more our society learns about substances and substance use disorder and this stuff at least. I think I'd like to think that maybe if I knew a bit more, I might have not been, I might have been a little bit more sensitive to those kinds of situations. And that's really what I'm hoping for is our society to have a giant wake up, a continuing giant wake up about normalizing the science of it.

Speaker 2: 29:14

So yeah, I do think there's truth there, right.

Speaker 1: 29:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:21

I think that the stigma in many, many places has been reduced yes, I don't think it's gone. Many, many places has been reduced. I don't think it's gone, but I think there's a lot way higher degree of awareness and consciousness than you know. Again, like I you know, I was a teenager in the eighties, right Coming up. Like I happened to get a job at a very fancy rehab center in Connecticut and so I was doing filing and so I was able to read people's files, and some famous people's files, like it was super interesting, but they were all you know alcohol and drug addiction and mental health is what people were getting there for. I just, you know, I got introduced to the concept of recovery there. One of my friends was also working. There was actually a good friend with one of the psychiatrists and she would tell him about our escapades and he was like I think the two of you might want to check out meetings. So her father was alcoholic and so he sent us off to Alateen and, wouldn't you know it, we had a six pack in the car, we were drinking on the way, but I was introduced to 12 steps as a teenager through that, which was really interesting, like super interesting to have that, but that was a special circumstance, right, I think today, you know, kids know, like they.

Speaker 2: 31:06

They know in a different way. I have a 19 year old daughter. They know in a different way. I have a 19-year-old daughter. They know in a different way Now she knows very intimately because of me, but they also they have access to so much information and I think they just have a different understanding of what's possible. If you make choices like that, these are things that could happen and these are, you know, outcomes that might be a part of it, and a lot of them still make those choices to do it. Okay, fine, but they have more information than we did.

Speaker 1: 31:41

Totally agree, yeah, totally agree, yeah, and that's really encouraging to me and the stats prove that out that the younger generations, they don't drink as much, you know they're, they're less interested in that stuff, and so you know this, the problem in corporate America is is very often it's, you know, middle aged folks that are running the boat and they're not aware of these things. And you know, like, when I was doing my work at Cisco and I was, you know, delving in there and learning things as well, you know I was I was also interested in policies, because, in theory, policies is where it all stems from, right, and I'd heard you were, I think you read some of those deals where people would, you know, get sent bottles of wine or bottles of booze. Job Well done, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 32:25

Yep.

Speaker 1: 32:26

And at least in a couple of cases and I've heard several when people would talk to me about it. You know, for them it was early in sobriety too, where it's, you know, you're still in the red zone, right Like. I can't imagine having a drink right now, Although I go to places where I get to hear stories of what happens when people like me test it out, and I'm convinced that it's not a good idea. So it's, but but that's beside the point, I guess what I'm saying is early on, you know, to have a drink for me, I believe, is a absolute insane roll of the dice for potentially years.

Speaker 2: 33:06

Yes.

Speaker 1: 33:06

And if, if, a if, a manager with in within good, with all the goodness in their heart, is sending this bottle of wine to uh, an employee without that kind of knowledge of how serious it is for people like us? Yeah, it's very. I don't think it's, I don't think it's malicious, I just think it's like just an obvious one to ask in advance, or maybe not even ask and just don't do it, right, yeah, any thoughts on any of that?

Speaker 2: 33:35

I think it's really interesting. I mean, I've had, I have lived experience of, you know, having. I was about 25, I took a one-year sabbatical from drinking and, you know, tried a few meetings early on, but I was like, oh, that's not for me. You know, I was way too enlightened in the moment, brett, don't you know? At that time in my life I was like, oh, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, that's not very enlightened. You know, that doesn't leave room for the miracle. Like I, an alcoholic, that's not very enlightened. You know, that doesn't leave room for the miracle. Like I was just whatever, you didn't want to talk to me at that time in my life. But you know, a year went by, I felt better. I was like, oh, maybe I won't drink anymore, until I went landed on the beach in Mexico, you know, for vacation, and I was like, you know what would make this sunset just a little bit more special? Margarita, cause I know a lot about myself now and I'm not going to drink in the same way. And of course, I hadn't read the big book, right, like so I didn't know that this was like so typical and and that 15 months of dry was followed by five years of hell. Five years of hell, and, you know, led me to suicidal ideation and therapy. And the therapist was like, hey, why don't you try AA? And I said I've been there, I don't know, not for me. And she said, well, you know, your insurance will look kindly on it if they think you're trying to help yourself. So you might, I might be able to get you some more free sessions with me. And I go, oh, all right, I'll do that. And and I haven't had a drink since that AA meeting Now, 18 months later, I did have a little toke off a marijuana cigarette and I was at a music festival and I had enough of a fear just come over me in that moment.

Speaker 2: 35:43

I took a hit off that joint and I thought, oh, I just lost my sobriety. Took a hit off that joint and I thought, oh, I just lost my sobriety and I felt like almost like a curtain come down and it felt like disconnect from whatever you know conscious contact I had built up at that point and it scared the living hell out of me and I, and so what I did was I sat, I literally grabbed a chair, I sat it up in front of the you know a band that was playing and I sat on my hands because I knew I'm like, if I pick up a drink right now, I'm done for, like, I can't do another of those five years out. So the point is this I have had lived experience that that one drink leads to. You know, for me, my experience. I can't do that. And so, again, you know, because I was around alcohol so much as a newly sober person, I've had people give me the bottle of wine and I just go, thank you and I hand it off.

Speaker 2: 36:49

But for someone who doesn't have that wherewithal or maybe they're by themselves and they're in a bad period, like I do think that policy, I think it would be smart to have policy that says no alcohol. It's not necessary Right Give it. Give a gift card if they could go buy alcohol if they want. Right, like, give a gift card if they could go buy alcohol if they want. Right, like, I agree with you. I think that that would be a reasonable way to support people from not having to not getting put into a situation like that.

Speaker 1: 37:21

Yeah, I stole this from somebody else, but why not just make it a carton of cigarettes while you're at it?

Speaker 2: 37:27

Right.

Speaker 1: 37:28

You know, if you replace it with a carton of cigarettes, suddenly it seems really absurd.

Speaker 2: 37:32

Yeah, little hit of fentanyl, you know.

Speaker 1: 37:38

Well done. Here's some Marlboros, a lot of them.

Speaker 2: 37:43

I love it yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:45

What's funny, you know this, I've used this metaphor. I don't know how I came up with this metaphor, but it's true for me is I've got. I believe, that my synapses and neurons, my brain wiring is, is slick and ready for a drop of booze to get my and I hope not a drop, because you know the odds of that are higher. But I have my wife taste things for me and you know the odds of that are higher. But I have my wife taste things for me and you know I'm very, very, very careful. I don't eat desserts that have booze in them. I'm probably ultra careful, probably too careful, but I have this little picture in my mind of these synapses and I've got these. Do you guys have oil cane Henry's down there?

Speaker 2: 38:24

No.

Speaker 1: 38:25

Anyway, they have this shtick where they've got their nice white clothes with a bow tie and these little beanie hats.

Speaker 1: 38:31

Oh sure, I've seen that Real crisp looking fellas and women, and anyway I've got this picture and they come to work every day in that part of my brain and they say good morning and they got their lunch boxes and they spend time getting those synapses and neurons just as smooth as a shiny and ready to rock every day, because all it's going to take for me is take a swig, and I think I'm a five-year person, karen, I don't think.

Speaker 2: 39:00

I'm a.

Speaker 1: 39:00

You know I've seen plenty of the you know amazing folks that come back after a week or a night or, but usually it's a few years, because that eight minutes is is blissful for for me. So so, yeah, in the workplace it makes it tricky because, you know I'll give you another example you know a guacamole making contest that we had for our organization and some people had spiked it with with tequila and wine, right, and didn't say anything, right, and I happened to catch it and so I knew which ones to steer clear of. But I just thought, you know, those are good people right there that are just not aware of how dangerous that is for me to put into my mouth.

Speaker 2: 39:43

Yeah, Well, you're also in a global workplace. You're also dealing with people's like religious beliefs too right.

Speaker 2: 39:52

Like there are people that don't drink alcohol very, you know, conscientiously because of their belief system, and so, yeah, that to me there, there should be no gray area there. Like you're no spiking food without clear signage, right, yeah, but true, like, I agree, I, there's one this was kind of a funny story at my back in early sobriety and the restaurant company, and so the the founder had brought his, you know, senior staff out for a nice dinner, and we were in LA at the time, I think we were sitting in Santa Monica, and it was a group of like 15 people, and as the night wore on and everyone's drinking I'm not drinking, I'm newly sober as the night wore on, some people started to leave and so the rest of us started to shift over in our places and I was sitting next to my dear, dear, dear colleague who was a heavy drinker and, bless her soul, she is not with us any longer, but she, you know, she's next to me, I'm next to her and there's a seat next to her that opens up. She moves down. I moved down and the Scotch and water glass was the same as the water glass, and so when we moved down, you know we didn't shift glasses. I just picked up the glass in front of me and took a big old swig, thinking it's water, and I went, oh my, so loud that everyone that was left at the table heard my audible like scared sigh. And they all look at me and I'm just holding Katie's glass that was her name and she's like oh my God, that was my scotch. And everyone is just watching me for about 30 seconds like waiting to see if I'm going to like combust Right, because they all knew I'm like not drinking.

Speaker 2: 41:55

And so I had that moment where I was like, and it was already down, like there was no like spitting it out. I just I prayed a lot that night, you know, because I had ingested, you know, a big gulp. Thank God she actually watered her scotch quite a bit, but you know I drank a lot of water, I prayed, I talked to my sponsor the next day and it did not set me off on a course, but but I feel like I was pretty lucky. Like you know, it could have gone the other way. It could have, like you know, lit that little pilot. It could have easily, because I'm very, I'm very susceptible, I'm very, yeah, you know. So anyway, I agree, I think it's dangerous, you know, for people to mess with people's wellness in that way.

Speaker 1: 42:50

My drinking wasn't particularly public. Near the end it was mostly alone. But then I got sober and I navigated as best as I could Right, and for a while there it was really uncomfortable. My life was pretty uncomfortable, trying to figure out how to do life without booze and drugs, in spite of the fact that I was going to meetings, I was around recovery, I was around people.

Speaker 1: 43:13

There's a big old word on the door that says anonymous, right on it, right. And so at work at least I didn't tell anybody except for, I think, maybe one person who I got, and that took years to where I got there right, and that's my story. But circling back to that conversation that I had with you, somebody that I thought highly of already I'd already spent some time with you and then to have you share that with me and I don't remember the specifics of the conversation, I just remember, my God, I know somebody else at Cisco who's in recovery now and it's Karen, and I think Karen's cool and she's doing cool work and all that, and that made an impact on me right, and so I can say from a first person perspective that it's been true. For a long time that connection has been important for me as I find my way to staying sober, but in the workplace it was absent until I met you To know. Somebody else you're working with is in recovery and I'm hopeful that that becomes more commonplace Over to you.

Speaker 2: 44:17

Yeah, I 100% agree. Like I said, I'm not going to meet someone for the first time and go. You know, I'm a kid and I'm an alcoholic, although I did have fear of that for so long that I would do that by mistake, right, because I went to so many meetings and I was so used to introducing myself, right with that. But I'm super okay talking about it and so, like, I'm pretty sure again, don't remember what phrase you used, I'm pretty sure you dropped a phrase that sounded like, and I will often say things like oh my gosh, are you friends with Bill and Bob? Right, and if people have no idea what I'm talking about, I just move on and I'm like, oh, I don't know what I was thinking, right, like I just pretend that I'm just had a, you know, a senior moment or whatever. But I, I'm, I'm super happy when I find people and and again, like, if I've people ask me if we're out and there's a situation about drinking and I'm, you know, I, no, thank you, I don't drink why, you know, like, if, if they're pressing the allergy thing, I'll say if I feel like it's probably culturally, people can't understand or have a harder time understanding. I'll use that more in those situations.

Speaker 2: 45:34

But I'll often just say I'm sober and so, or oh, do you ever drink? No, I don't drink at all. I'm, so I did. You know I drank plenty. You know I drank enough for a lifetime, so I'm. I'm sober now, and so I did. You know I drank plenty. You know I drank enough for a lifetime, so I'm. I'm sober now, and so I will say it, because I know that there is a chance that someone needs that hand, that that opportunity to talk, that you know if it's for themselves or for someone in their family and I'm also I've been in Al-Anon for a long time too and so if someone needs to talk about a family member, I'm there for that too. But I do think that it being more open and accepted in the workplace to share that I think that about.

Speaker 2: 46:23

Like everything, though, about humanity I'm I have anxiety, I have depression, I'm going through a divorce, I have, you know, I lost a family member. Like. I think all of those things like when, when they, when they talk about separation of work and home, how how do you separate it? I'm sorry, when people are going through things, you can't not bring it to work. Work might be a haven, a place where you can actually get a little respite from having to think about whatever's happening all the time, but it's not like it's gone away.

Speaker 2: 47:04

And so I think humans, being able to be human at work, is essential, and having that opportunity to just be real and real about what's going on, you know, at the end of the day, is going to create more productivity, loyalty, engagement, you know. For organizations, I think it's you know again, I said it earlier around this field that I tripped into, that I didn't know about before. It's human potential plus organizational results. They're not, they are linked right, and part of human potential is human realness, human vulnerability. Right, like when you can show up fully, when all of your strengths and all of your goodness, but you also have to have the opposite Right, like the reality of what's going on in your world.

Speaker 2: 47:59

So I think it's like it's smart business, right, to let people show up and be fully who they are and speak openly about all the things not the things that you bring to therapy, right, we're not holding therapy at work. But I also feel like you shouldn't have to hide. You shouldn't have to hide if you're in therapy, right, like you shouldn't have to hide if you you know you've going through something and that's something that you're doing and you shouldn't have to hide if you you know you've going through something and that's something that you're doing, and you shouldn't have to hide if you're in recovery.

Speaker 2: 48:31

And you shouldn't have to hide if you're in a difficult time in your life.

Speaker 1: 48:33

And disease parity to like. I would never encourage somebody to eat sugar or make sure there was all sugar on the table if they had diabetes, and similarly, I'm not going to have the only beverage be alcohol because somebody's got this condition. They can't drink it or they shouldn't. So we'll conclude this with a little. Well, I'll give you a chance to close it up too, but I don't know if you know this, and I'm going to do a little for those that are of my audience that are into recovery-friendly workplaces, which is a growing group of people, because I'm getting more and more into that. Today is that we're recording. This is May 21st 2024. The White House released a toolkit, basically a recipe for how businesses can become an accredited recovery-friendly workplace. It's called Recovery. Ready is the word they use in November of 2023. Ready is the word they use in November of 2023. The accreditation document. I participated in proofreading it a little bit, and it releases next Tuesday, may 28th.

Speaker 2: 49:36

That's exciting.

Speaker 1: 49:38

That is an opportunity for anybody that's listening to this, that's in HR or any kind of company. There's going to be a national accreditation document that you can strive for or potentially check boxes and become accredited very soon. So I really believe that we're in the middle of a tipping point and corporate America is likely going to change the world. So there's my public service announcement and my little commercial here at the end, and I'll put links in the show notes for some of that stuff as well. Karen, it's weird that we won't be working at the same company. I feel like we've known each other a while now and that we're both in recovery. I just think our paths will cross over time and I know that you're going to do great work wherever you go. I'd love for you to any closing thoughts here, as we, as we shut our laptops and and call it a podcast.

Speaker 2: 50:34

Yeah, love it. Yeah, it is a little weird we won't be working together, but I do. I know we'll stay in touch, right. I mean, our connection was pretty clear even before we knew the recovery connection. So I'm really happy about that, and we do tend to find each other. That's also been my experience. So that's really cool.

Speaker 2: 50:53

You know, I just have such gratitude that my life is so different because of recovery and so I don't take it lightly that it's a gift I'm given right, and that I have to take care of for myself so that I can show up, you know, as the best person I can be for my company, for my family, for my friends, for my community, for the world. So thank you for that work you're doing. I will take a look when you share this link with me. I'll look at the show notes and look at those links and see if I can have some advocacy inside the new organization I'm going to right and see if we can get that going there, because I think every little bit helps, you know. See if we can get that going there, because I think every little bit helps, right. Every organization that takes it up, every it's, you know, you get that little ball rolling, you get that momentum and it becomes. It becomes a thing that can, like you said, change the world. It's fantastic and thank you, thanks, for making this happen.

Speaker 1: 52:26

Thank you. Thanks for making this happen. Thank you. As was mentioned earlier in the podcast, I'm going to put the show notes, some of the links and stuff. The Recovery Friendly Workplace Institute has in fact, released that certification document, so that's an easy one to go and have a look at. I'll also put the link to the Recovery Ready Toolkit from the federal government that was landed in November of 2023. I'll put my website so I'm moving in a direction, and my website is wwwbrettlovenscom and that's spelled with two T's. For all the Bretts out there, one T or two is often the first question we have for each other when we meet, and for the one T Bretts we both know that it's spelled correctly with two. So there's that.

Speaker 1: 53:13

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I hope that you'll open your mind up and maybe look around you in the workplace. There's a lot of winning to be done, easy wins for recovery in the workplace and just being, you know, looking out for your fellow person. Go to a dinner, there's going to be a vegetarian on the menu, there's going to be gluten-free, and guess what? There's a bunch of us that can't and shouldn't drink, and there should be some parity when it comes to beverages, et cetera. So that's just one example of an easy win. So best to all of you reach out through my website or you know, just keep listening as feels appropriate and share as feels appropriate as well. All right, take care.